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Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:46 am
by D-rell
AcrossTheCourt wrote:
Would the analogue then be Allen Iverson? Iverson has a lot of inherent ability, but I wouldn't rank him as high as Garnett (although Iverson's problem was largely height.)
Maybe if you make conditions perfect for Dantley, surround him with defensive players and shooters, feed him the ball a lot, keep his personality in check (though I think the team cancer stuff is a bit overblown), then he can led a successful team. But that's a lot of maybe's and it hasn't been proven yet....
I'm not going to fault a guy for being in a bad position. People doubted Garnett, but once he had good teammates and a good system in Boston his team won the title. I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but the problem is Dantley was traded again and again, had loads of teammates, and still had problems finding the right situation. If it's so difficult to find a situation for him, and he can't fit well with a Detroit team that soon won a title, is he really all that great?
I feel like I need to write a long article following his career, looking at every change in his career and his role, putting the numbers in better perspective....
The requisite and criteria in player comparisons, especially over different era's, is inescapably subjective. It all depends on the angle that you're viewing the players. I tried to reflect some of the primary angles - ranking relative to position, individual ability assessment (based on 5 year peak performances, efficiency metrics (against league avg.), defensive impact, box scores stats, expert opinions, ect.), and of course career achievements. Some parameters are fairly easy to draw up, eg Jabbar was strong in virtually all areas of his position, even 72% FT shooting (maybe he weakest area) isn't bad for his position. Jabbar performed at a high level consistently both regular season and postseason, for a long period time quantified by his wins shares and career achievements. Also, considering the importance of the Center position on offense (close to the basket, high % scoring) and on defense (last-line and more often than not anchoring the defensive strategy), its difficult to justify him not being in anyone top 10, or really top 5. After inserting Dantley in each of the criteria I discussed, it's easy to conclude that he underachieved, his high individual ability (particularly offensively) didn't translate into the correlative career success that you might expect from a player of his caliber (6 AS appearence, no All NBA 1st teams, 2 2nd team selections vs. George Gervin an AS every year of NBA career w SA, and All NBA 1st team 5 consecutive seasons). Gervin was a better defender, according to box scores, esp. under Coach Moe opposed to Albeck, but neither Gervin or Dantley were known for their defensive impact, it was their scoring ability. It could be argued that Gervin was more consistent offensively esp if you consider his time in the ABA, he was definitely more durable than Dantley, but from '80-82 seasons by all offensive metrics (both players' staple), Dantley was easily the better player in my opinion. If you consider each players top 5 seasons, which I believe if enough of a body of work to set a template for ability (potential):
Code: Select all
Gervin TS% OWS OWS/48 AST% USG% ORB% FTA/MP% Off Rt PPG Adj. PER
1979-80 0.587 9.3 0.173 11.0 31.7 5.7 20.2% 115 33.1 48.6
1981-82 0.562 8.7 0.182 11.4 35.0 5.2 22.8% 114 32.3 48.3
1978-79 0.591 8.1 0.189 11.5 30.0 5.4 19.7% 112 29.6 43.6
1977-78 0.594 9.2 0.201 16.1 29.5 4.5 21.2% 111 27.5 42.5
1980-81 0.555 8.1 0.182 15.8 32.3 5.2 22.4% 113 27.1 41.6
Average 0.578 8.7 0.185 13.2 31.7 5.2 21.3% 113 29.9 44.9
Dantley TS% OWS OWS/48 AST% USG% ORB% FTA/MP% Off Rt PPG Adj. PER
1983-84 0.652 13.0 0.235 16.2 28.2 6.7 31.7% 126 30.6 55.2
1985-86 0.629 10.4 0.223 16.7 30.0 7.2 29.0% 121 29.8 52.3
1981-82 0.631 11.9 0.187 15.5 27.9 7.6 25.4% 121 30.3 48.3
1979-80 0.635 9.5 0.189 12.3 27.8 8.3 19.7% 119 28.0 44.5
1980-81 0.622 12.3 0.191 16.3 28.4 6.5 22.9% 118 30.7 44.4
Average 0.634 11.4 0.205 15.4 28.5 7.3 25.7% 121 29.9 48.9
This is partially how I determined their Offensive ability, with the Adj. PER (omitting the defensive computations from Hollingers PER). My point is according to my calculations Dantley has more Offensive Ability, and like readers of my list can interpret Dantley as underachieving in his career in comparison to Gervin, they can just as easily interpret Dantley as to being underrated in the comparison. I also noticed one user claiming that Dantley's full potential may have not been utilized by coaching staff, and at least to some degree the metrics above suggest that, namely the relationship btw Usage% and Offensive Rating.
As far as Iverson-Garnett in relation to the Gervin-Dantley comparison. While it's true I've determined Iverson to posses more Offensive ability than Garnett by a wider margin than Dantley is to Gervin, Garnett's raw potential to impact a game defensively (position relative = 250.0), over Iversons (111.5) is a much wider disparity than Gervin (98.4) vs Dantley (78.2) despite that in my model offense is weighed more than defense. Garnett overall is better than Iverson in each of my ranking sets. Meanwhile Dantley possess higher offensive ability than Gervin, with Gervin having the much better career.
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:51 am
by Mike G
Mike G wrote:
Here are some players not in your top 100 but in my top 75.
Code: Select all
46 Pau Gasol
48 Shawn Kemp
53 Reggie Miller
55 Chauncey Billups
58 Manu Ginobili
63 Rasheed Wallace
65 Terry Cummings
68 Larry Nance
69 Vlade Divac
71 Kevin Johnson
74 Walt Bellamy
75 Shawn Marion
Does anyone else think some of these guys would seem to be shoo-in Top 100 listees?
Kemp was right there behind Malone and Barkley among '90s forwards. His trajectory was precipitous at the end, and that's why he's not in Top 30 discussions. Check his playoff numbers year in and year out. More minutes and better than his regular seasons.
Gasol the elder has also had quite a run, production and team success. Reggie is a legend in playoffs and longevity. Billups is Mr Big Shot.
There are lots of tools only recently available, which may be incorporated into such lists.
By this, I meant you can easily gather advanced stats and awards by basketball-reference.com
Their Player Season pages, and playoff version, are quite awesome. When I started doing lists, there was nothing of the sort.
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:06 pm
by Mike G
Using this b-r.com page --
http://bkref.com/tiny/ZmI2n -- I get advanced stats for the top 200 win-shares careers, NBA+ABA, in regular seasons.
Of these, 160 have known Usg% and ORtg, and some of those are for just the end of their career.
Here's the entire list of players about whom it is true that no one is higher in both categories:
Code: Select all
Player ORtg Usg
Chris Paul 1.22 .237
Adrian Dantley 1.19 .261
Michael Jordan 1.18 .333
Nobody has higher ORtg at a higher Usg% than Dantley.
It looks possible that no one will ever have a higher Usg% than Jordan. After his top mark are current players: Wade, Kobe, Carmelo, LeBron -- also Iverson -- in the .315-.320 range.
Paul's career is ongoing, so he may well wind up with a much lower ORtg.
And of course, it makes perfect sense to standardize player ORtg against the league environment (DRtg) in which they were attained.
If we multiply frequency (Usg) by efficiency (ORtg), we get a sort of Offensive Proficiency Index, here shown as XY:
Code: Select all
.xy Player ORtg Usg xy Player Ortg Usg
.393 Michael Jordan 1.18 .333 .305 Julius Erving 1.12 .272
.368 LeBron James 1.16 .317 .304 Amar'e Stoudemire 1.14 .267
.356 Dwyane Wade 1.11 .321 .304 David Robinson 1.16 .262
.356 Kobe Bryant 1.12 .318 .303 Paul Pierce 1.09 .278
.342 Carmelo Anthony 1.08 .317 .300 Bernard King 1.08 .278
.342 Kevin Durant 1.14 .300 .297 Patrick Ewing 1.06 .280
.339 Dominique Wilkins 1.12 .303 .296 Walter Davis 1.08 .274
.334 Allen Iverson 1.05 .318 .294 Alex English 1.11 .265
.333 Shaquille O'Neal 1.13 .295 .293 Hakeem Olajuwon 1.08 .271
.332 Karl Malone 1.13 .294 .290 Ricky Pierce 1.16 .250
.330 John Drew 1.07 .308 .290 Clyde Drexler 1.14 .254
.329 George Gervin 1.11 .296 .289 Chris Paul 1.22 .237
.319 World B. Free 1.10 .290 .288 Moses Malone 1.14 .253
.317 Mark Aguirre 1.09 .291 .288 Manu Ginobili 1.15 .250
.316 Tracy McGrady 1.08 .293 .286 Mitch Richmond 1.10 .260
.316 Dirk Nowitzki 1.17 .270 .284 Dan Issel 1.15 .247
.311 Adrian Dantley 1.19 .261 .283 Sam Cassell 1.10 .257
.308 Vince Carter 1.09 .283 .282 Chris Webber 1.04 .271
.305 Larry Bird 1.15 .265 .280 Tony Parker 1.09 .257
.305 Tim Duncan 1.10 .277 .279 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1.15 .243
On this scale, Jordan distances himself even more from the pack. The next 5 will likely drop as they age.
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:43 pm
by D-rell
Mike G wrote:Using this b-r.com page --
http://bkref.com/tiny/ZmI2n -- I get advanced stats for the top 200 win-shares careers, NBA+ABA, in regular seasons.
Of these, 160 have known Usg% and ORtg, and some of those are for just the end of their career.
Here's the entire list of players about whom it is true that no one is higher in both categories:
Code: Select all
Player ORtg Usg
Chris Paul 1.22 .237
Adrian Dantley 1.19 .261
Michael Jordan 1.18 .333
Nobody has higher ORtg at a higher Usg% than Dantley.
It looks possible that no one will ever have a higher Usg% than Jordan. After his top mark are current players: Wade, Kobe, Carmelo, LeBron -- also Iverson -- in the .315-.320 range.
Paul's career is ongoing, so he may well wind up with a much lower ORtg.
And of course, it makes perfect sense to standardize player ORtg against the league environment (DRtg) in which they were attained.
If we multiply frequency (Usg) by efficiency (ORtg), we get a sort of Offensive Proficiency Index, here shown as XY:
Code: Select all
.xy Player ORtg Usg xy Player Ortg Usg
.393 Michael Jordan 1.18 .333 .305 Julius Erving 1.12 .272
.368 LeBron James 1.16 .317 .304 Amar'e Stoudemire 1.14 .267
.356 Dwyane Wade 1.11 .321 .304 David Robinson 1.16 .262
.356 Kobe Bryant 1.12 .318 .303 Paul Pierce 1.09 .278
.342 Carmelo Anthony 1.08 .317 .300 Bernard King 1.08 .278
.342 Kevin Durant 1.14 .300 .297 Patrick Ewing 1.06 .280
.339 Dominique Wilkins 1.12 .303 .296 Walter Davis 1.08 .274
.334 Allen Iverson 1.05 .318 .294 Alex English 1.11 .265
.333 Shaquille O'Neal 1.13 .295 .293 Hakeem Olajuwon 1.08 .271
.332 Karl Malone 1.13 .294 .290 Ricky Pierce 1.16 .250
.330 John Drew 1.07 .308 .290 Clyde Drexler 1.14 .254
.329 George Gervin 1.11 .296 .289 Chris Paul 1.22 .237
.319 World B. Free 1.10 .290 .288 Moses Malone 1.14 .253
.317 Mark Aguirre 1.09 .291 .288 Manu Ginobili 1.15 .250
.316 Tracy McGrady 1.08 .293 .286 Mitch Richmond 1.10 .260
.316 Dirk Nowitzki 1.17 .270 .284 Dan Issel 1.15 .247
.311 Adrian Dantley 1.19 .261 .283 Sam Cassell 1.10 .257
.308 Vince Carter 1.09 .283 .282 Chris Webber 1.04 .271
.305 Larry Bird 1.15 .265 .280 Tony Parker 1.09 .257
.305 Tim Duncan 1.10 .277 .279 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1.15 .243
On this scale, Jordan distances himself even more from the pack. The next 5 will likely drop as they age.
In my rankings I attempt to put extra emphasis on peak performance. Specifically in those comparisons with Gervin, you can make an argument that Dantley was underutilized at his peak - being that Dantley was more efficient offensively. Gervin had a Usg% of 31.7 in his peak measurements (I define as a players top 5 seasons as an ability idication), Mark Aguirre 31.7, Bernard King 29.9, and Dantley, with an astonishing peak Offensive Rating at least 5 pts higher than either scoring contemporary has a peak Usg% of 28.5.
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:40 pm
by BasketballJedi
false - dantley was one of the game's best midrange shooters during his prime, in particular his set shot from 15'-18' anywhere near the foul line. if you had actually seen him play you would know this...
Hey, I'm on your side here
And I've watched Dantley play. He could certainly shoot the ball from midrange, but I favor Melo (only as a pure shooter!) because he can stretch the floor with the 3-ball, while still being a proficient midrange shooter.
Specifically in those comparisons with Gervin, you can make an argument that Dantley was underutilized at his peak - being that Dantley was more efficient offensively.
From what I remember about those Jazz teams in the 80s, Layden implemented some basic sets with Dantley on the floor. Clearouts for Dantley on the wing or top of the key were common, but there was not a bunch of weakside/offball action or player movement. The Jazz offense seemed content with letting Dantley do his thing as a scorer in isolation, but lacked a "counter" when defenses brought help or a double team; add that the fact that they lacked floor spacing/outside shooting and its easy to see why those offenses were less than optimal. The ball-stopper criticism is exaggerated; Dantley looked to score if he was guarded one-on-one and pass the ball out if defenses sent a double. It's what you want players to do.
Not a bunch of Dantley footage is out on the web, but Game 5 of the '88 Finals (Pistons v. Lakers) is on YouTube. I invite anyone to put numbers aside and WATCH that game. A past-his-prime Dantley had lots of offensive impact in the game, especially helping the Pistons climb out of a double-digit deficit in the 1st half and making it a double-digit lead. He abused the Lakers one-on-one, drew fouls, cleaned up the offensive glass and opened up shots for his teammates by forcing the Lakers to send help in the post. His offensive greatness is there in plain sight.
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:40 am
by bchaikin
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:37 pm
by Mike G
I've now updated through the 2012-13 season (and postseason), and compared my current player rankings with those of the OP -- D-rell
Players who were active last year.
In 3 groupings: Those more favored by D-rell; those ranked higher by me; and more that are in my top 100 and not in D-rell's
Code: Select all
D-r mg D-r mg mg
63 105 Bosh 9 8 Lebron 43 Gasol
46 75 Durant 23 19 Nowitzki
43 62 Paul 95 86 Amare 54 Ginobili
_7 12 Kobe 91 78 Carmelo 57 Billups
54 64 Allen 37 28 Kidd 70 Boozer
51 58 Nash 17 11 Garnett 72 Marion
78 85 Hill 73 59 Parker 82 Odom
_5 6 Duncan 53 30 Pierce 87 Brand
25 24 Wade 69 40 McGrady
39 49 Howard 92 48 Carter
They're ordered by the difference of the square roots of the ranks.
I'd like to compare Bosh and Gasol (the elder). Here's a quick and dirty:
http://bkref.com/tiny/w4MHR
Gasol looks better in more categories; both PER and WS/48 prefer him; and he's played 16% more minutes.
In playoffs, Gasol's edge is even greater, and in 66% more minutes!
EDIT: Didn't see Dwight Howard at first; he's now inserted, out of order, in the leftmost list.
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:58 pm
by Chronz
Thx for the bump, Ive enjoyed rehashing this debate in my head. Gotta love dat Dantley
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:46 am
by Mike G
Since I've compiled this list for comparison purposes, I'll share it here -- along with my own ranking, in hopes of discussion.
I could add other rankings, if anyone's got one.
Code: Select all
D-r MG D-r MG
1 1 Michael Jordan 11 5 Karl Malone
2 2 Kareem AbdulJabbar 12 14 Julius Erving
3 3 Wilt Chamberlain 13 7 Hakeem Olajuwon
4 4 Shaquille O'Neal 14 17 Jerry West
5 6 Tim Duncan 15 22 Oscar Robertson
6 9 Magic Johnson 16 16 David Robinson
7 12 Kobe Bryant 17 11 Kevin Garnett
8 13 Bill Russell 18 27 Moses Malone
9 8 LeBron James 19 15 Charles Barkley
10 10 Larry Bird 20 21 Bob Pettit
21 29 John Havlicek 31 34 Artis Gilmore
22 18 Elgin Baylor 32 32 Elvin Hayes
23 19 Dirk Nowitzki 33 31 Dolph Schayes
24 33 Rick Barry 34 20 Scottie Pippen
25 24 Dwyane Wade 35 39 Isiah Thomas
26 23 Patrick Ewing 36 125 Willis Reed
27 60 George Gervin 37 28 Jason Kidd
28 35 Bob Cousy 38 26 Clyde Drexler
29 44 Gary Payton 39 49 Dwight Howard
30 41 Allen Iverson 40 25 John Stockton
41 46 Dave Cowens 51 58 Steve Nash
42 42 George Mikan 52 90 Tom Heinsohn
43 62 Chris Paul 53 30 Paul Pierce
44 53 Dominique Wilkins 54 64 Ray Allen
45 51 Walt Frazier 55 56 Bob McAdoo
46 75 Kevin Durant 56 146 Spencer Haywood
47 179 Bill Sharman 57 36 Robert Parish
48 110 Paul Arizin 58 45 George McGinnis
49 133 Hal Greer 59 52 Kevin McHale
50 94 Sam Jones 60 191 Connie Hawkins
61 129 Lenny Wilkens 71 98 Dave DeBusschere
62 61 Alonzo Mourning 72 466 Slater Martin
63 105 Chris Bosh 73 59 Tony Parker
64 147 Mel Daniels 75 238 Nate Archibald
65 74 Neil Johnston 75 140 Vern Mikkelsen
66 77 Jerry Lucas 76 65 James Worthy
67 38 Bob Lanier 77 169 Sidney Moncrief
68 154 Ed Macauley 78 85 Grant Hill
69 40 Tracy McGrady 79 69 Alex English
70 63 Billy Cunningham 80 177 JoJo White
81 88 Adrian Dantley 91 78 Carmelo Anthony
82 170 George Yardley 92 48 Vince Carter
83 96 Nate Thurmond 93 188 Dennis Rodman
84 84 Wes Unseld 94 122 Chet Walker
85 100 Tim Hardaway 95 86 Amare Stoudemire
86 117 Bailey Howell 96 253 Gus Johnson
86 37 Chris Webber 97 161 Harry Gallatin
88 174 Dave Bing 98 80 Cliff Hagan
89 47 Dan Issel 99 183 Mitch Richmond
90 97 Dennis Johnson 100 67 Jack Sikma
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:44 pm
by Mike G
Which of these players is #72 all-time?
http://bkref.com/tiny/785Ux
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:51 pm
by Mike G
Some such lists have Pete Maravich pretty high up. He doesn't make the top 100 here, nor does he make my top 200. Yet he was 4 times all-league (twice 1st team), a 5-time all-star, currently 14th (among completed careers) in points per game.
He's ranked by b-r.com as 89th in 'MVP award shares'
The main reason I don't believe in the inclusion of Awards and Honors when I rank players' careers, is that it's counterproductive to the goal of leveling the playing field for those who were either overrated or overlooked in their playing time. Each time a player is included (or excluded) from somebody's list, it amounts to a "piling on" effect.
There's an "incumbency bias" in such things as all-NBA, all-Defensive teams, allstar appointments, and such. Maravich holds the distinction of having the lowest WS/48 since 1960 for an Allstar -- 0.004 -- in his last allstar season, 1979.
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:57 am
by jbrocato23
Mike G wrote:Some such lists have Pete Maravich pretty high up. He doesn't make the top 100 here, nor does he make my top 200. Yet he was 4 times all-league (twice 1st team), a 5-time all-star, currently 14th (among completed careers) in points per game.
He's ranked by b-r.com as 89th in 'MVP award shares'
The main reason I don't believe in the inclusion of Awards and Honors when I rank players' careers, is that it's counterproductive to the goal of leveling the playing field for those who were either overrated or overlooked in their playing time. Each time a player is included (or excluded) from somebody's list, it amounts to a "piling on" effect.
There's an "incumbency bias" in such things as all-NBA, all-Defensive teams, allstar appointments, and such. Maravich holds the distinction of having the lowest WS/48 since 1960 for an Allstar -- 0.004 -- in his last allstar season, 1979.
If Maravich played today, we'd all agree he's an inefficient chucker. I think his flashiness made him popular and therefore overrated, though it probably started when he averaged 44 (!!) in college.
Agree big time with your "incumbency bias" theory, and I think it's most notable in all-defensive teams (e.g., Kobe with 9 first team selections - one in 2011, and a second team selection in 2012).
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:06 am
by jbrocato23
I think it would be interesting if at some point we did something like
this on this board and vote to rank a consensus top 100 (or 50 or whatever) of all time. Of course, we would need a number of people willing to participate over a fairly long period of time.
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:55 am
by Mike G
We did a thing here once, called it Ring of Honor, I believe. It was awkwardly done, IMO, as every couple of days, a nominee was voted on, yay or nay. If you weren't around at the time, you didn't get a vote in. Some players were included on a 2-1 vote, I think.
A few years before that, in the old APBR Yahoo Group, we also tried. That effort bogged down, as we tried to trim the bottom of the list -- those close to 100th in submissions. Players who were debated got more votes (as more people entered the debate) than those who had earlier been included.
We could submit our list of 100 players. Some have had trouble coming up with that many; so if you submit just 60, so be it. If 10 people submit a list, it's likely Jordan will get 10 "votes" and Kemp would get fewer. Then you'd have a sort of "ranking", based on number of submissions; but no distinction between the 20 to 40 players who are unanimous picks.
People have all sorts of biases. Old guys tend to like the oldtimers. Youngsters may only care about recent players. Some think all positions should be equally represented; some think all eras have equally viable candidates. Try debating Terry Cummings vs Cowboy Edwards.
One prominent apbrmetrician would not go for anyone who had played in the ABA, in that early poll.
In any case, it's probably time to do this again, and no better group could do it as well. I'm sure Durant and Paul haven't been in the earlier debates.
We probably won't get a consensus on how to judge players. A "greater" player may have a less-great career than one who played longer or was less injured: Bill Walton vs Elvin Hayes, say. How much does postseason count? Championships? Off court antics?
Re: 100 Greatest NBA Players (The Ultimate List)
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:08 pm
by jbrocato23
Mike G wrote:
People have all sorts of biases. Old guys tend to like the oldtimers. Youngsters may only care about recent players. Some think all positions should be equally represented; some think all eras have equally viable candidates. Try debating Terry Cummings vs Cowboy Edwards.
One prominent apbrmetrician would not go for anyone who had played in the ABA, in that early poll.
In any case, it's probably time to do this again, and no better group could do it as well. I'm sure Durant and Paul haven't been in the earlier debates.
We probably won't get a consensus on how to judge players. A "greater" player may have a less-great career than one who played longer or was less injured: Bill Walton vs Elvin Hayes, say. How much does postseason count? Championships? Off court antics?
I think that's part of the fun...e.g., how to you reconcile peak vs. longevity, playoffs vs. regular season, etc. It makes for great discussion and debate. As does older fans and newer fans arguing their biases. I think through this kind of discussion everyone learns a lot. Ftr though, I think simply refusing to vote for any ABA player is utterly absurd.