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Re: Vote players into our alltime top 100, etc.
Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:00 pm
by Mike G
Alright, 12 people viewed my latest post and nobody offered a suggestion or changed a vote. So I'm going with the amazing coincidence that 69+31=100, and establishing the precedent that one vote less than a majority is sufficient for promotion, and moving on.
Another first is that a write-in candidate -- Sidney Moncrief -- is promoted on first ballot. He got 3 votes from 7 voters.
As write-ins seem to be gaining in frequency, it may be inevitable that we have to drop the requirement for a majority vote.
This round's final tallies:
7 - Bellamy, Billups
6 - Johnston, Heinsohn, Marques Johnson, Nance, Marion
5 - Arizin, Sharman, Hagan, Walton, Sikma, Rodman
4 - Terry Porter, Divac, Kemp, Webber, Grant Hill, Brand
3 - Lovellette, Sam Jones, Beaty, DeBusschere, McGinnis, English, Dennis Johnson, Moncrief, Hornacek, Tim Hardaway, Rasheed Wallace, Bosh
2 - Bobby Jones, Gus Williams, Aguirre, Cummings, Horace Grant, Mark Jackson, Cassell, Baron Davis, Carlos Boozer, Amar'e Stoudemire, Carmelo Anthony
1 - Foust, Howell, Wilkens, Chet Walker, Dandridge, Archibald, Maurice Lucas, Alvan Adams, Walter Davis, Bernard King, Eddie Jones, Hamilton, Odom, Kirilenko
0 - Strickland, D Coleman, Antoine Walker
These 19 with 2 or fewer votes will now be posted along with 31 new names in the poll.
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:17 pm
by Need To Argue
The choices are getting tougher because I keep seeing players who may not deserve to be voted on for another few weeks, but that's ok because we're talking basketball which is better than the alternatives other than baseball. I have two write-ins who I think should have been in already: Gus Johnson and Pete Maravich.
Is there a list of guys who are already in?
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:09 pm
by Mike G
Excellent suggestion. The four rounds of voting are in 4 columns, each ranked by votes received.
Code: Select all
Bill Russell Bob Pettit Bob Lanier Walt Bellamy
Kareem AbdulJabbar Artis Gilmore Ray Allen Chauncey Billups
Magic Johnson Patrick Ewing Adrian Dantley Neil Johnston
Larry Bird Rick Barry Alonzo Mourning Tom Heinsohn
Michael Jordan Dave Cowens Bob McAdoo Marques Johnson
Shaquille O'Neal Kevin McHale Dominique Wilkins Larry Nance
Tim Duncan Clyde Drexler George Gervin Shawn Marion
LeBron James Gary Payton Jerry Lucas Paul Arizin
Wilt Chamberlain Jason Kidd Manu Ginobili Bill Sharman
Oscar Robertson Dwight Howard Nate Thurmond Cliff Hagan
Kevin Garnett Dolph Schayes Reggie Miller Bill Walton
Julius Erving George Mikan Wes Unseld Jack Sikma
Hakeem Olajuwon Walt Frazier Billy Cunningham Dennis Rodman
John Stockton Elvin Hayes Dikembe Mutombo Terry Porter
Kobe Bryant Isiah Thomas Pau Gasol Vlade Divac
Jerry West Steve Nash Tony Parker Shawn Kemp
Karl Malone Paul Pierce Ben Wallace Chris Webber
Dirk Nowitzki Bob Cousy Dan Issel Grant Hill
Moses Malone Robert Parish James Worthy Elton Brand
Scottie Pippen Allen Iverson Kevin Durant Clyde Lovellette
David Robinson Tracy McGrady Kevin Johnson Sam Jones
Charles Barkley Chris Paul Vince Carter Zelmo Beaty
Elgin Baylor Dave DeBusschere
Dwyane Wade George McGinnis
John Havlicek Alex English
. Dennis Johnson
. Sidney Moncrief
. Jeff Hornacek
. Tim Hardaway
. Rasheed Wallace
. Chris Bosh
Gus Johnson and Pete Maravich now have one vote.
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:22 pm
by Need To Argue
Thanks. Easier to see who's in so far. Are Westphal, Bing and Hawkins in the next round?
Did I miss McHale? Was he on yet?
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:23 pm
by Need To Argue
Never mind found him.
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:27 pm
by mark kieffer
Man, I don't get the voting logic by some of ya'll.
I put in Archibald, Casselll, Cheeks, Horace Grant, Greer, Howell, M. Jackson, E. Jones, Laimbeer, A. Miller, Oakley, Schrempf, R. Strickland, O. Thorpe, Chet Walker, and Wilkens.
IMO Cheeks, Grant, Greer, Howell, Jackson, Jones, Laimbeer, Miller, Thorpe, Walker, and Wilkens belong in the Top 100...
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:33 pm
by Mike G
mark kieffer wrote:Man, I don't get the voting logic by some of ya'll.
IMO Cheeks,... ... belong in the Top 100...
Have you actually counted your top 100 guys, or is it possible there are more than 100 in there?
You'll find a diversity of opinion here. That's a good thing. No 2 people think alike, nor even look at the facts in the same way.
For the curious, here's yet another breakdown, by era, of the 150 players thus far examined.
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.era #
'50s 16
'60s 20
'70s 26
'80s 33
'90s 33
'00s 21
Again, by year of entry into the NBA or ABA. For the life of me, I can't see any bias except perhaps favoring
earlier decades.
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:27 am
by Mike G
Dangnabbit! My spreadsheet was shuffled wrongly, and I got 5 guys in this poll who should have been 5 other guys. And 4 of them have received votes! All I can do now is replace Robert Horry with Rajon Rondo; the others will work themselves out later, we suppose.
NtA: Bing will likely turn up in the next round, Hawkins in the round after that, and Westphal after that. Westy is #217 on my list -- short career and not too impressive in playoffs.
Just 4 unanimous votes among the first 3 voters -- for Cheeks, Jackson, Howell, and Laimbeer.
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:24 am
by Need To Argue
mark kieffer wrote:Man, I don't get the voting logic by some of ya'll.
I put in Archibald, Casselll, Cheeks, Horace Grant, Greer, Howell, M. Jackson, E. Jones, Laimbeer, A. Miller, Oakley, Schrempf, R. Strickland, O. Thorpe, Chet Walker, and Wilkens.
IMO Cheeks, Grant, Greer, Howell, Jackson, Jones, Laimbeer, Miller, Thorpe, Walker, and Wilkens belong in the Top 100...
Same sentiment here. I have Tiny, Greer, Reed and Wilkens as top 50 guys and they will struggle to make the top 125. It doesn't make sense. You have to include intangibles and not just statistics.
If people pick Jason Kidd so quick, how can they not pick Lenny Wilkens? Smartest guy on the floor and made all their teams better. Same guy. I am sure we will get statistics that say otherwise, but they are two of the most similar players we'll ever see.
What is funny is the four guys that are unanimous so far is that they are probably near the weakest guys we all voted for, but we all had them in the 25 of this list choice where we all would have guys over them that aren't there yet. It's not easy to do this with all the various backgrounds of our group.
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:04 am
by mark kieffer
Mike G wrote:mark kieffer wrote:Man, I don't get the voting logic by some of ya'll.
IMO Cheeks,... ... belong in the Top 100...
Have you actually counted your top 100 guys, or is it possible there are more than 100 in there?
You'll find a diversity of opinion here. That's a good thing. No 2 people think alike, nor even look at the facts in the same way.
For the curious, here's yet another breakdown, by era, of the 150 players thus far examined.
Code: Select all
.era #
'50s 16
'60s 20
'70s 26
'80s 33
'90s 33
'00s 21
Again, by year of entry into the NBA or ABA. For the life of me, I can't see any bias except perhaps favoring
earlier decades.
I have 100 in my Top 100. I will spare everybody the full list, but I do have it. I do think people need to remember the NBA hasn't always had a 3 point shot, stats such as assists are subjective, offensive rebounds weren't tracked until the 1970s, etc., etc., etc.
I am only 29, I wasn't around during the previous eras other than the 1990s and 2000s in terms of following basketball; but I do know history and think some people are neglecting it a little bit and favoring the now a bit. How can anybody put a guy who's been in the league for 10 years (Bosh), who averages 19 and 9 a game in the Top 100 of all time?
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:50 am
by Statman
mark kieffer wrote:
I am only 29, I wasn't around during the previous eras other than the 1990s and 2000s in terms of following basketball; but I do know history and think some people are neglecting it a little bit and favoring the now a bit. How can anybody put a guy who's been in the league for 10 years (Bosh), who averages 19 and 9 a game in the Top 100 of all time?
I believe a big part of it - in ALL sports - is the much larger number of playoff games to accumulate playoff stats. Guys 30 years ago or more played in smaller series, in less series (less teams made the playoffs). Doesn't help that their careers were shorter too (torn ACL, torn achilles, etc - pretty much career over).
Anyway - numbers get accumulated - people crunch reg season and playoffs - and the totals favor the modern guys with their playoff stats padded by 7 game first round series, with so many more players getting to accumulate those stats almost every year.
I plan on weighting my playoff WAR - to help make better sense of player careers across the decades. I too LOVE the history, and hope to do it justice when it's all said and done - who knows when I'll get it done....
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:31 am
by Mike G
... the totals favor the modern guys with their playoff stats padded by 7 game first round series, with so many more players getting to accumulate those stats almost every year.
Welcome to the discussions; now get up there and vote.
The above quote is actually a myth. While it's possible for a player to be in more playoff games now, it's also more likely he'll miss the playoffs entirely. When 6 of 8 teams made the playoffs, only 1/4 of players were left out in the cold. Now, almost half don't make it in a given year.
In my big list of 685 'significant' careers, not weighted by minutes, the average player has gotten .071 of his career minutes in playoffs.
Looking back at players who started their careers at various times, in 5 year intervals -- along with the avg start and finish times of these careers -- the avg fraction of minutes in playoffs:
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from - to PO/T Min
1952 1960 .080
1957 1967 .078
1962 1973 .077
1967 1977 .074
1972 1982 .066
1977 1988 .064
1982 1994 .073
1987 2000 .072
1992 2004 .064
1997 2010 .072
2002 2013 .072
2007 2013 .066
After a few decades of decline in this ratio, there's a mid-80s bump-up when the format goes to 4 full rounds; and another bump in the current century, upon making the 1st round a full best-of-7.
Clearly there's no favoritism for modern times.
While you may get lucky like Horry (who never failed to see at least 2 rounds of playoffs), you are now more likely to be unlucky, like ...
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.004 Kenny Sears 1956 1964 .004 Doug West 1990 2001
.009 Terry Dischinger 1963 1973 .005 Pooh Richardson 1990 1999
.000 Tom Van Arsdale 1966 1977 .006 Lionel Simmons 1991 1997
.000 Bob Kauffman 1969 1975 .0095 Bimbo Coles 1991 2004
.000 Otto Moore 1969 1977 .002 Bob Sura 1996 2005
.007 Neal Walk 1970 1977 .005 Shareef AbdurRahim 1997 2007
.000 Geoff Petrie 1971 1975 .007 Earl Watson 2002 2013
.000 Nate Williams 1972 1979 .008 Mike Dunleavy 2002 2013
.006 Phil Hubbard 1980 1989 .0099 Emeka Okafor 2005 2013
.001 Scott Skiles 1987 1996 .003 David Lee 2006 2013
These are the 20 of 685 who have had less than 1% of their minutes in playoffs. Many played with expansion teams, thus are clustered around expansion periods: 1968-72, the '90s.
EDIT: Troy Murphy (2002-13) should also be in this group; making more than half of such playoff-starved careers from 1990 and later.
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:05 am
by Mike G
Need To Argue wrote:mark kieffer wrote:..IMO Cheeks, Grant, Greer, Howell, Jackson, Jones, Laimbeer, Miller, Thorpe, Walker, and Wilkens belong in the Top 100...
Same sentiment here. I have Tiny, Greer, Reed and Wilkens as top 50 guys ..
IMO, all those guys are in or pretty close to the top 100, and they may end up there in our poll.
You guys almost agree on 2 of them, it looks like (Greer, Wilkens).
If people pick Jason Kidd so quick, how can they not pick Lenny Wilkens? Smartest guy on the floor and made all their teams better. Same guy. I am sure we will get statistics that say otherwise, but they are two of the most similar players we'll ever see.
I think what you are inferring is that Wilkens is the closest '60-70s
equivalent to Kidd? But if Kidd was better, or played for longer, or did what Wilkens could do
and then some -- then people might conclude he had the better career.
And maybe Kidd was all of those things. We'll see about his coaching career.
Every participant gets the same number of votes here, based on whatever reasons you feel are important; and you can change your votes at any time. You can submit a write-in candidate; but if you submit one way too early -- and he doesn't get sufficient votes in 2 consecutive rounds -- he's back in the mix and waiting his normal turn.
What we're seeing is an interesting mix of highly subjective votes and opinions, and those based on quantifiable facts. I may be the only one going on pure statistics, so it always seems funny to me how others may choose to ignore this and focus on that. But more votes is better, so far.
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:24 am
by Mike G
I do know history and think some people are neglecting it a little bit and favoring the now a bit. How can anybody put a guy who's been in the league for 10 years (Bosh), who averages 19 and 9 a game in the Top 100 of all time?
Historically speaking, Bosh has scored 19.5 ppg in an era in which points are not as easy to come by as in most earlier times. Per 100 points per team, he's averaged 21 pts/36 min.
This actually puts his scoring rate in Oscar Robertson territory (21.9); Moses, McHale, Schayes, Drexler, Lanier, Issel, Heinsohn, Marques Johnson -- all were in the 20-22 range, after accounting for their scoring environment.
Now it's true these players had twilight years to settle their scoring rates some. But after 15 years, Bosh will have greater totals (obviously) that more than offset his inevitable decline in per-game or per-minute rates.
Re: Vote players into our alltime top 125, etc.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:25 pm
by mark kieffer
I think maybe the difference of opinion is that some voters are apparently going off of PER, while others (such as myself) are using a blend of Win Shares, History, and Subjectivity.