Page 1 of 1

Avg. starter / bench metric values & perf. / pay ratios

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:05 am
by Crow
I assume the average starter value is probably plus 1 to 1.5 per 100 possessions (or a bit more?) and the average bench player value is -2 to -3 but who has the exact values and for which metrics? What do the average performance / pay ratios look like for each (or for 3 groups if you want early vs bench benches)?

How many player exceed 150% of league average on performance and on pay?

Re: Avg. starter / bench metric values & perf. / pay ratios

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:28 pm
by Mike G
Maybe it's time to do another starter-sub comparison, regarding the relative value of boxscore stats in these roles.

Here's a list of players who last season started at least 25 games, but no more than 2/3 of their games were starts. That is to say, they all got significant games and minutes as a starter and off the bench.
http://bkref.com/tiny/LPhS4

There were 47 such players; but I tossed out the rookies and those who had changed teams mid-season. Then I stopped at 1200 minutes minimum. So of the remaining 32 players, I find these standout examples -- two players who were hugely better either as a starter, or coming off the bench:

Code: Select all

Tobias Harris  Det           per 36 minutes                           
.      G    mpg   TS%    FGA   FTA  ORb   DRb   Ast   Stl   Blk   TO    PF    Pts    T
sta   48   32.9  .550   14.4   3.0   .8   4.4   2.0    .8   .7   2.4   1.9   17.3   23.6
sub   34   29.0  .595   15.7   3.5   .9   5.8   2.0    .9   .4   1.2   1.8   20.4   29.3

TJ McConnell   Phl           per 36 minutes                           
.      G    mpg   TS%    FGA   FTA  ORb   DRb   Ast   Stl   Blk   TO    PF    Pts    T
sta   51   30.5  .520    9.1   1.6   .6   3.8   9.2   2.2   .2   2.6   2.1   10.1   23.5
sub   30   19.3  .454    7.5   1.4   .8   3.0   8.5   2.4   .2   3.0   3.0    7.4   19.3
I took the liberty of creating a T value, where T = Pts+Reb+Ast+Stl+Blk-TO, in per36 rates.
About 2/3 of the 32 qualifying players had worse overall productivity when starting. Ranked by T(sta) - T(sub):

Code: Select all

Worse as starter                 Better as starter      
-5.7   Tobias Harris    Det      4.1   TJ McConnell   Phl
-4.2   Jon Leuer        Mil      2.7   Jameer Nelson  Den
-4.0   Nik Stauskas     Phl      2.7   Austin Rivers  LAC
-3.5   Pau Gasol        SAS      2.1   Alex Len       Phx
-3.4   CJ Miles         Ind      1.8  Josh Richardson Mia
-3.1   Glenn Robinson   Ind      1.5   James Ennis    Mem
-3.0   Randy Foye       Brk      1.3   Noah Vonleh    Por
-2.8   Monta Ellis      Ind      1.2 Sergio Rodriguez Phl
-2.6   Bismack Biyombo  Orl      1.0   Ish Smith      Det
-2.4   Dewayne Dedmon   SAS       .9   Iman Shumpert  Cle
-2.1   Trevor Booker    Brk       .0   Rajon Rondo    Chi
-1.8   Wilson Chandler  Den            
-1.5   Dante Cunningham NOP            
-1.5   Gerald Henderson Phl            
-1.3   Boris Diaw       Uta            
-1.3   Al-Farouq Aminu  Por            
-1.1 Rondae H-Jefferson Brk            
-0.8   Kenneth Faried   Den            
-0.7   Joe Ingles       Uta            
-0.5   Tim Hardaway     Atl            
-0.0   Tim Frazier      NOP            
When coming off the bench, players shoot more and only a little better, and get a few more turnovers. Here are the per36 averages, weighted equally for each player.

Code: Select all

x     mpg    TS%    FGA    FTA    ORb    DRb    Ast    Stl    Blk    TO     PF     Pts
Sta   27.9  .537   10.55   2.40   1.41   5.04   3.53   1.07   .61   1.90   2.84   12.46
Sub   21.1  .541   10.94   2.72   1.54   5.21   3.36   1.12   .66   1.94   3.12   13.15
ratio 1.32   .99    .96    .88    .92    .97    1.05    .95   .93    .98    .91    .95
A given player gets 8% more OReb and 7% more blocks when coming off the bench. Also 5% more steals and 12% more FTA.
This is in spite of the assumption that a coach may start a guy when he's playing better.

It seems the difference is about .20 to .25 in plus-minus. That is, a player's BPM (for example) might change by about .22 depending whether he's a starter or a sub.
I'd also estimate a player's WS/48 to be about .008 too high if he's a bench guy, relative to a starter with the same numbers.

Re: Avg. starter / bench metric values & perf. / pay ratios

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:48 pm
by Crow
Thanks for the data.