I've started this thread because basically I wanted to poll whoever is willing to reply to find out what the thoughts are on this Lakers team. How good are they? Can they be great? Is D'Antoni a problem? I this just an example of how throwing together great players and a respected coach isn't enough? Are they doing just fine but simply aren't as good as the top tier as a group of individuals? What are the thoughts and any revealing numbers on this current flop? Betfair still has them third favourites for the title (10% chance), what do you think of that?
Personally I haven't been shocked by A) Their injury problems, or B) Their problems as a team - but then I'm low on Nash and Kobe compared to most. Right now I think D'Antoni is extremely close to losing his seat, the media and Kobe are basically calling for his job by continually pointing out his misuse (abuse?) of one of the great post-up players of this era, and from my point of view his chosen system is a complete mess for a team with two dominant big guys, one inside/outside shooter and one brilliant orchestrator.
This Lakers Team
Re: This Lakers Team
I'd rather talk about this Warriors team. 
Re: This Lakers Team
I just think it'd be interesting to see where people stand - we can all talk about our own teams (I never miss an opportunity to bring up the Spurs) but with this side so tipped for glory and billed as a super-team I think they're an interesting case study.
Re: This Lakers Team
Both Howard and Gasol are experiencing large downturns in productivity from last year.
Before Dwight was there, it seemed that Gasol was most productive when Bynum was not playing. Does anyone in APM-land have insight into that perception?
They were at best a team with a super starting lineup and essentially no bench. With Nash out most of the year so far, and the Gasol/Howard inefficiency, they've seriously underperformed.
Kobe has been forced into designated-scorer mode, when he's a very versatile player. Nobody on the team is working to their full ability.
Metta World Peace has been an amazing comeback story. Without that going for them -- bleh.
Before Dwight was there, it seemed that Gasol was most productive when Bynum was not playing. Does anyone in APM-land have insight into that perception?
They were at best a team with a super starting lineup and essentially no bench. With Nash out most of the year so far, and the Gasol/Howard inefficiency, they've seriously underperformed.
Kobe has been forced into designated-scorer mode, when he's a very versatile player. Nobody on the team is working to their full ability.
Metta World Peace has been an amazing comeback story. Without that going for them -- bleh.
Re: This Lakers Team
Don't have time for a fuller analysis right now but I'll mention a few things.
Nash-Bryant and Nash-Howard are nice enough (+5-7 per 48 minutes on raw +/-) but Nash-Gasol is just +1 cumulatively in 200 minutes. Gasol-Howard is -4 in 555 minutes.
S. Nash K. Bryant M. World Peace P. Gasol D. Howard is +18 in 96 minutes. S. Nash K. Bryant P. Gasol D. Howard J. Meeks is +10 in 10 minutes. All other Nash-Gasol lineups are -27 in 94 minutes. There must be some horrendous lineup(s) with them that either were early growing pains / flukes or need reform or elimination.
S. Nash K. Bryant P. Gasol D. Howard J. Meeks is +33 in 104 minutes. So all other Gasol-Howard lineups sum to -37 in 451 minutes. Looks alike the offending lineups had Morris, Meeks or Duhon, or in one case two of them. Maybe should avoid using them with the bulk of the starters as much as possible or pick better 5 man lineups with them. Same thing is true for the Nash-Gasol lineups.
xRAPM has 5 good Lakers, Jamison neutral and everyone else bad to very bad. The lineup with all five positive xRAPM players so far is barely positive on +/- and is only at 40% win. Probably really need that lineup to play a lot and do a lot better if they are to have any chance or pick the best quads. S. Nash K. Bryant M. World Peace P. Gasol is +17 in 138 minutes. All other Nash-Gasol (with and without Howard) is -18 in 63 minutes.
Duhon-Meeks-Bryant-WorldPeace-Howard is the best lineup over 25 minutes with 4 of the 5 best players.
Nash only has one lineup over 25 minutes so far. They will need to pick a few other Nash lineups and pick the right ones.
Nash-Bryant and Nash-Howard are nice enough (+5-7 per 48 minutes on raw +/-) but Nash-Gasol is just +1 cumulatively in 200 minutes. Gasol-Howard is -4 in 555 minutes.
S. Nash K. Bryant M. World Peace P. Gasol D. Howard is +18 in 96 minutes. S. Nash K. Bryant P. Gasol D. Howard J. Meeks is +10 in 10 minutes. All other Nash-Gasol lineups are -27 in 94 minutes. There must be some horrendous lineup(s) with them that either were early growing pains / flukes or need reform or elimination.
S. Nash K. Bryant P. Gasol D. Howard J. Meeks is +33 in 104 minutes. So all other Gasol-Howard lineups sum to -37 in 451 minutes. Looks alike the offending lineups had Morris, Meeks or Duhon, or in one case two of them. Maybe should avoid using them with the bulk of the starters as much as possible or pick better 5 man lineups with them. Same thing is true for the Nash-Gasol lineups.
xRAPM has 5 good Lakers, Jamison neutral and everyone else bad to very bad. The lineup with all five positive xRAPM players so far is barely positive on +/- and is only at 40% win. Probably really need that lineup to play a lot and do a lot better if they are to have any chance or pick the best quads. S. Nash K. Bryant M. World Peace P. Gasol is +17 in 138 minutes. All other Nash-Gasol (with and without Howard) is -18 in 63 minutes.
Duhon-Meeks-Bryant-WorldPeace-Howard is the best lineup over 25 minutes with 4 of the 5 best players.
Nash only has one lineup over 25 minutes so far. They will need to pick a few other Nash lineups and pick the right ones.
Re: This Lakers Team
I think they just have just went with Bickerstaff instead of hiring D'Antoni. Would have been a lot cheaper also.
I also think they'd be a better team had they kept Odom and Barnes instead of aquiring Howard. I know Odom received lots of criticism from the Mavs, but he actually wasn't that bad there. His shooting %s were bad but his defense was good, and still is with the Clippers. Probably should have also tried to keep Fisher
I don't have any constructive criticism at this point. Obviously I expected them to play alot better than this, but after watching a couple of their games I don't think there is a quick fix other than firing D'Antoni and hiring Skiles, which would then mean they'd be paying 3 coaches simultaneously
I also think they'd be a better team had they kept Odom and Barnes instead of aquiring Howard. I know Odom received lots of criticism from the Mavs, but he actually wasn't that bad there. His shooting %s were bad but his defense was good, and still is with the Clippers. Probably should have also tried to keep Fisher
I don't have any constructive criticism at this point. Obviously I expected them to play alot better than this, but after watching a couple of their games I don't think there is a quick fix other than firing D'Antoni and hiring Skiles, which would then mean they'd be paying 3 coaches simultaneously
Re: This Lakers Team
Getting Howard for Bynum plus crap was a no-brainer, but that was unrelated to the depature of Odom and Barnes anyway. Even though Odom could have been worse on the Lakers as well, keeping him and not giving him up for the TPE would have been the better decision last season. The versatility he presented gave the Lakers a great frontcourt rotation, his ability to play with Bynum and Gasol respectively would have helped a lot. He covered the defensive lapses of both while opening up the court offensively with his passing and range.J.E. wrote: I also think they'd be a better team had they kept Odom and Barnes instead of aquiring Howard.
The Mavericks actually had an issue with his personality, his presence had a negative effect on the motivation of his teammates. That was the issue Odom was critized for on the Mavericks. His playing level at PF in terms of production and efficiency was rather bad, but he was a much better option at PF than Shawn Marion. The Mavericks should have worked that out instead, imho.J.E. wrote: I know Odom received lots of criticism from the Mavs, but he actually wasn't that bad there.
I don't think hiring another head coach would be a good decision. A part of the issue with the Lakers is injuries, which wouldn't change with another coach. There big man rotation is really, really weak without either Howard or Gasol, and it becomes incredible bad with Gasol and Howard being out.J.E. wrote: I don't have any constructive criticism at this point. Obviously I expected them to play alot better than this, but after watching a couple of their games I don't think there is a quick fix other than firing D'Antoni and hiring Skiles, which would then mean they'd be paying 3 coaches simultaneously
Another issue is the perimeter defense. Next to Bryant you would need a point guard who can cover up the lack of off-ball defense by Bryant, and next to Nash you could use a stronger help defender at the SG position.
My advise: Get healthy and find a working rotation with Nash and Bryant sharing the court as less as possible, while the same goes for Howard and Gasol. Bryant/Gasol and Nash/Howard seems to be pairs they should build their lineups around. Gasol needs his space offensively underneath the basket, Bynum+Gasol also didn't work well, and Nash should handle the ball more and not just watch Bryant getting isos. Howard needs touches offensively, easy basket of pick&rolls with Nash would likely increase his motivation on defense.