Worst a Player Can Be

Home for all your discussion of basketball statistical analysis.
xkonk
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by xkonk »

DSMok1 wrote:
xkonk wrote:If you think it's a gamma, can't you pull some random samples and compare them to actual NBA ratings to see what looks close? Then you'll have the distribution and will know the asymptote.
Trying to figure out how to do this. Right now I'm investigating what kind of curves fit well the right tail of the actual NBA talent pool, with the assumption that this right tail is also that of the general populace.
Here's a first pass idea: pick two BPM values that you feel good about. Maybe the max in a typical year, and the number that around 100 guys get. You know the numbers better than I do, but let's say 10 and 0 for the sake of argument.

Then I would crank up R or whatever you want to use to generate random values. You mentioned a gamma function, so let's start with a gamma with shape=1 and rate=1. We want to sample a big value so that we feel good about the extreme tail and can match it up with that max player. For 'reality', maybe we'd pick a number that reflects the actual number of potential NBA players. I also have no idea what that is, but maybe you could google some census numbers for the number of 18-35 year old males in the world. Let's say it's 3 million, which is too small but won't keep R running longer than I want it to right now.

If I run test = rgamma(3e6, shape=1, rate=1) and then data.frame(count=hist(test)$counts,value=hist(test)$mids), I'll generate a bunch of potential BPM scores and then a data frame (mostly to line up the numbers nicely) with how many people fall into each bin and the midpoint value of that bin. For my run, I get 2 in the 13.75+ bin, 2 in a 13.25 bin, and more going lower.

The first thing I need to do is move the max back to 10; since gamma can only be positive but BPM obviously goes negative, this is fine because I need to adjust the axis. In my case, I'll subtract about 4 because the max was 13.9. The 20th bin that R made for me has 88 people, which I'll call close enough for now. The bin value there is 9.75, which gets adjusted down to 4.75. That's too high; it should be 0 to match observed BPM values. Not surprising since subtracting 4 from the gamma function predicts no one under -4, and we've observed worse in the NBA. So now I'd try a different shape and rate and go through the process again.

Does that seem like the way to do it? You might need to pick more than two values to compare, since we're talking about a curve instead of a line, and you might want to play with bin defaults and whatnot to make comparisons easier or more directly in line with your BPM data. Or, at least if you're using R specifically, you can look into functions that directly fit different models to BPM data. Here's one potentially relevant stack overflow question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1419 ... cific-data . Presumably if you had an equation, you could figure out the asymptote.
AcrossTheCourt
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:56 am

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by AcrossTheCourt »

Is this a subtle jab at the Kings?

I really do think the best way to answer this is locating possessions where one player was trapped downcourt for whatever reason (injury, lost a shoe, lethargy). You just need some way to prepare a list of those possessions. You can do that with SportVU data easily ... if you had the data.
DSMok1
Posts: 1119
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:18 pm
Location: Maine
Contact:

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by DSMok1 »

Well, here's what I have so far.

I grabbed the last 20 years of BPM values, and estimated their true talent levels (regressed toward a Bayesian prior based on MPG and team quality; fitted based on out of sample testing).

Then, I tried to fit a distribution to the tail of the curve. The general idea is to get a feel for the general population distribution vs. players actually in the NBA.

Here's what I've got:

Image

It appears that the distribution I choose probably won't matter after all--for the domain relevant to the NBA, the general population will likely be linear on a log scale, thus exponential in shape.

Thoughts?

I was mostly interested in this "Worst a Player Can Be" as a lower bound for BPM in order to fit the general population talent curve, which I assumed might be Gamma in shape.
Developer of Box Plus/Minus
APBRmetrics Forum Administrator
Twitter.com/DSMok1
xkonk
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by xkonk »

What's the difference between those two graphs? Just the scale of the y axis?

I don't see the exponential on the top graph, and it looks like it pretty much follows the gamma in the bottom, but none of the fits you have on there seem to describe the actual NBA data very well. Looks like you need something with a fatter tail.

Also, are those histograms of all player-seasons from 96 to 15, or all player-careers in that span? I can see either choice having pros and cons, although mostly cons for the former.
jmethven
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:34 pm

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by jmethven »

Fun thread! This is an unscientific approach, but I'm trying to imagine myself (averaged <2 points per game on a very bad intramural college team) on the floor in an NBA court. On offense, my best bet would probably be to just stand in the corner and try to shoot an open 3.

I think it could get pretty ugly. Let's say my offensive rating was 50. I think I could hit the occasional 3 but my conversion rate would be pretty low (20% or worse). I'd probably have a bad turnover ratio despite my role, I'm sure I would almost certainly turn it over if I ever tried to put the ball on the floor and passing probably would be an adventure too. Put me on the court with four players with a 105 rating and we average a 94, so that's -11 on offense right there. Even better, let's say I can only handle 4% of possessions. Now everyone else has to ramp up to 24% of possessions. If that costs them all 1.25 points for every 1%, now I've cost them -16 on offense. If anything, I think it could be worse than that.

I think I'd be more destructive to the team on defense where I wouldn't have any chance of staying in front of an NBA guard (I'm 6'1") and there would be constant defensive breakdowns. I think I could be -40 overall pretty easily!

Another idea - in the KenPom ratings, the estimated difference between #1 Kentucky (+32.8) and #351 Grambling St. (-34.5) is 67.3 points per 100 possessions. So the difference between an average Kentucky player and an average Grambling St. player is 13.5 points per 100 possessions. And that's between players who are good enough to play Division I basketball! Let's say an average NBA team is 30 points per 100 possessions better than Kentucky. Now the average NBA player is 19.5 points better than the average Grambling St. player. And there's still a long way to go from the average Grambling St. player to me.
Mike G
Posts: 6145
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:02 am
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by Mike G »

If you can extrapolate year-to-year strength of league (avg player), you might find some really bad players in the 1968 ABA or pre-NBA and estimate their 2015-equivalent BPM.

We find players who -- even against those levels of competition -- shot badly and rarely, didn't pass or rebound much. What did they do, boxscore-wise? Well, they laid some fouls on opponents. Occasionally picked up a rebound, an assist, or a garbage bucket.

You have to be pretty immobile and inattentive to not be worth anything, i.e., 5-on-4 equivalent. And anyone can put a foul on a player breaking to the rim. Sparing a better teammate from a foul, you've made a good play.
Crow
Posts: 10536
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:10 pm

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by Crow »

It is a substantially different question but, what is the worst a player can be and still be a starter on a title winning team? There might not be a specific theoretical limit but what does the historical data show for average worst starter and maximally worst starter? What about for 50 or 40 win teams?
Crow
Posts: 10536
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:10 pm

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by Crow »

The average BPM for the worst starter for last 8 title winners is just below 0. Best was a tie between Rondo and Perkins at 2.6. Worst was Haslem at -3. 3 positive, one at 0, 4 negative.
bchaikin
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 2:09 am

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by bchaikin »

what is the worst a player can be and still be a starter on a title winning team?

in 92-93 a 35 year old bill cartwright started at C for 63 games (20 min/g) for the title winning chicago bulls (W-L 57-25)...

among the 31 Cs in the league that year with at least 20 games started, cartwright:

- shot the worst, a 45.2% ScFG% (2s, 3s, and FTs), just 41% on 2s...
- was the worst rebounder, just 8.9 reb/48min...
- was the worst shot blocker at 0.4% BS (10 blocks in 1253 min)...
- scored just 11 pts/40min, with poor offensive efficiency...

simulation shows that on a per minute basis he generated wins at one of the absolute lowest/worst rates among the league's Cs that year...

not much better was mark iavaroni in 82-83 starting 77 games (20 min/g, 1612 min) at PF for the champion philadelphia 76ers (65-17). among the 27 PFs that year that started 20+ games, iavaroni:

- was the 5th worst rebounder at 9.8 reb/48min...
- was the 5th worst overall shooter, and 5th worst on 2s (46%)...
- had the lowest/worst scoring rate (10.0 pts/40min)...
- had the lowest/worst rate of offensive efficiency...
- had the 4th highest/worst per minute rate of fouls committed...

again simulation shows that on a per minute basis iavaroni generated wins at one of the lowest/worst rates among those 27 PFs...
Crow
Posts: 10536
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:10 pm

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by Crow »

Thanks for those historical examples.
DSMok1
Posts: 1119
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:18 pm
Location: Maine
Contact:

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by DSMok1 »

jmethven wrote:Fun thread! This is an unscientific approach, but I'm trying to imagine myself (averaged <2 points per game on a very bad intramural college team) on the floor in an NBA court. On offense, my best bet would probably be to just stand in the corner and try to shoot an open 3.

I think it could get pretty ugly. Let's say my offensive rating was 50. I think I could hit the occasional 3 but my conversion rate would be pretty low (20% or worse). I'd probably have a bad turnover ratio despite my role, I'm sure I would almost certainly turn it over if I ever tried to put the ball on the floor and passing probably would be an adventure too. Put me on the court with four players with a 105 rating and we average a 94, so that's -11 on offense right there. Even better, let's say I can only handle 4% of possessions. Now everyone else has to ramp up to 24% of possessions. If that costs them all 1.25 points for every 1%, now I've cost them -16 on offense. If anything, I think it could be worse than that.

I think I'd be more destructive to the team on defense where I wouldn't have any chance of staying in front of an NBA guard (I'm 6'1") and there would be constant defensive breakdowns. I think I could be -40 overall pretty easily!

Another idea - in the KenPom ratings, the estimated difference between #1 Kentucky (+32.8) and #351 Grambling St. (-34.5) is 67.3 points per 100 possessions. So the difference between an average Kentucky player and an average Grambling St. player is 13.5 points per 100 possessions. And that's between players who are good enough to play Division I basketball! Let's say an average NBA team is 30 points per 100 possessions better than Kentucky. Now the average NBA player is 19.5 points better than the average Grambling St. player. And there's still a long way to go from the average Grambling St. player to me.
This is a very useful take!

I wonder whether your -40 would be better than the 4 average players simply having you stand on the sideline? What do you think? Do you think you'd still have some value over air?
Developer of Box Plus/Minus
APBRmetrics Forum Administrator
Twitter.com/DSMok1
thecorner3john
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:31 am

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by thecorner3john »

is having someone who can hit open threes at around 20% better or worse than just having 4 guys on the court? I would lean toward better, but obviously those shots are going to hurt the team's overall efficiency, so maybe worse. On defense, an extra body is invariably helpful. If we're assuming that this person is at least mobile enough to get up and down the court in a relatively reasonable time their mere presence on defense should at least provide marginal help. So is your question asking about the worst a capable human could be? Or how bad things would be if you literally had an elderly person on the court unable to get up and down the floor to stay with play?
I really like the NBA Draft, I also really like numbers. I try and write about the two of them here: wingspanaddicts.com
bbstats
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:25 pm
Location: Boone, NC
Contact:

Re: Worst a Player Can Be

Post by bbstats »

Idea: find the average distance to the shooter of a defender in a 5 on 4 fast-break.
Use that value's expected eFG% difference to calculate.
Post Reply