NBA-ABA careers ranked, 1952-2016

[bchaikin]

I suspect maybe your simulation has Eaton generating a lot of wins for the simple reason that you assign a lot of defensive credit to him. Maybe your assessment is exactly right,

eaton has 6 seasons of 300+ blocks, no other player has more than 3 seasons. he also averaged playing just 32 min/g over those 6 seasons. the other 9 players with 18 seasons total of 300+ blocks averaged playing 35 min/g...

in his career he averaged 365 blocks per 3000 minutes, and during his career teams averaged grabbing 67% of rebounds as defensive (utah also 67%)...

so in his career the jazz averaged about 245 defensive stops (365 x 0.67) per 3000 minutes due just to his shot blocking. that does not include all the defensive stops due to eaton preventing shots from going in while not actually blocking the shot, which if you trust the estimates of harvey pollack amounts to another 50%-100% of the shots he actually blocked, or some additional 180-360 forced missed FGAs and 120-240 defensive stops, for a total of about 245+120 to 245+240 or some 365 to 485 defensive stops per 3000 minutes played due to just 1 player...

even if you assume a lower defensive rebounding rate for blocked shots, as low as 60% or even 55% (as opposed to 67%), that's still a slew of defensive stops due to just 1 player...

and his team's stats clearly show the value of his defense - not only was utah the best defensive team in the league over the 8 years of 8485-9192, they were 1st in the league 3 straight years from 8687-8889...

but nobody could know.

eaton was DPOY twice, in 8485 and 8889...

he was named to the all-D team 5 straight years, 8485-8889, 3 times all-D 1st team...

so on the contrary - everyone knows...

somehow not that elite in D-Rating

a rating that gives equal defensive credit to players on the same team normalized to their minutes played outside of their steals, blocks, and defensive rebounds, and you're surprised eaton doesn't rate high in that?...

you think outside of their steals, blocks, and def rebs that on a per minute basis players like darrell griffith, adrian dantley, jeff wilkins, mark iavaroni, jeff malone, et al were equal in defensive ability to mark eaton?...

good luck with that...

[Mike G]

... an argument can easily be made for eaton being one of the greatest defensive players in league history, if not the greatest.

outside of their steals, blocks, and def rebs that on a per minute basis players like darrell griffith, adrian dantley, jeff wilkins, mark iavaroni, jeff malone, et al were equal in defensive ability to mark eaton?.

Going out on a limb here -- it's more likely somewhere in between?
Ranked by minutes, Eaton's teammates were primarily: Malone, Stockton, T Bailey, Griffith, D Green, Hansen, B Edwards, M Brown, J Malone.
Malone and Stockton made some all-D teams, Thurl was good, etc.

Can you run a bunch of simulated series between the 1989 Jazz and Warriors and tell us how often the GSW beat the Jazz 3-0?

[bchaikin]

Going out on a limb here -- it's more likely somewhere in between?

a very weak limb...

eaton from 8485-8889 was DPOY twice and got far more votes for the DPOY (77) over those 5 seasons than anyone (next best was alvin robertson with 43)...

he was all-D 1st team 3 of those seasons, all-D 2nd team twice, and was the only player named to the all-D team each of those 5 years (alvin robertson was 4 times)...

the jazz were by far the best defensive team in the league those 5 years (102.1 ps/100poss allowed). no one else was even close (next best was 103.5 pts/100poss allowed)...

and those 5 years stockton was named to one all-D team (8889) and malone one (8788), and no jazz player other than eaton received a single DPOY vote during that time...

so in the eyes of the voters for DPOY and the all-D team eaton was clearly the dominant defender in the league during that time...

on top of all that from 8384-9192, a stretch of 9 years where eaton played 2000+ minutes each year, the jazz were the league's best defensive team (103.2 pts/100poss allowed), and allowed the lowest eFG% (46.8%) and the lowest 2pt FG% (46.9%) among all teams. those 9 years he averaged 279 blocks/year and 2288 minutes/season...

any player that is the league's dominant defender over a 5 year stretch should be considered one of the all-time great defenders, and when you look at his team's defensive performance over his career where he played major minutes they were in fact the best on defense for a long time - and thus it can be argued he was the best defender ever...

[Mike G]

I'm still interested in quantifying this stuff. So ...

...if Eaton blocks 8% of all opponent shots -- and lets just say they would otherwise be .500 eFG% shots -- that alone is reducing oppFG% by .040
Then if you say he's also reducing his man's FG% by another .050, does that mean opposing centers may have shot .060-.090 worse against him?

Obviously some blocks will be on the opposing C, but not all. The (known) blocks affect the whole opposing team, while the -.050 assigned to his man defense would only be -.010 vs the whole team (if the C takes 1/5 of shots), multiplied by mpg/48.

But elite defensive centers can be expected to influence inside players more than perimeter players, so lets take a more comprehensive look at such opponents.
Here again is Olajuwon's statistical history vs Eaton, from 1985-1993; he played 1725 minutes (46 G) vs Utah in that time.

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per36  FG   FGA   FTA   ORb   DRb   Blk    Pts   eFG%    TS%
all   8.9  17.3   6.7   4.0   8.2   3.5   22.6   .515   .558
vs E  8.7  18.1   7.5   4.6   7.8   3.8   22.4   .481   .522
net    -8    40    38    29   -20    16    -11  -.033  -.036

Hakeem took 40 more FGA and 38 more FTA vs Eaton/Jazz than he did in his avg rates during the interval. But he shot .036 worse, netting 11 fewer points than normal.
These net (surplus/deficit) totals can be summed and averaged over any sample of players. These guys played from 1985 on and are called C, C-F, or F-C:

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vs Eaton   min   FG  FGA  FTA  ORb  DRb  Blk   Pts   eFG%    TS%
Willis     400   10    3   10   -5    1    1    27   .054   .053
Ch Smith   454    7    1   -5  -11    1   -2    12   .035   .031
Carr       656   -5  -18    9   -9    6   -1     0   .017   .030
Tisdale    518    3    1    3   -4   -7    3    12   .012   .019
Rasmussen  726   19   31   10    5  -13    0    48   .012   .019

Duckworth  799    4    4   26   -2   -7    3    28   .007   .016
Cage      1252   -4  -13    3   -3  -24   -8    -7   .009   .008
Ewing      554    3    5  -14    7   12    8    -6  -.001  -.007
Thorpe    1499  -49  -74  -31   24  -41   -1  -123  -.022  -.019
Olajuwon  1725   -8   40   38   29  -20   16   -11  -.033  -.036

vs Eaton   min   FG  FGA  FTA  ORb  DRb  Blk   Pts   eFG%    TS%
Schrempf   658  -13   -9  -27  -16   -2    1   -44  -.031  -.037
Gilliam    541  -15   -4  -23    6   -2   -4   -33  -.061  -.038
Benjamin   894  -23  -22  -20    0    9   24   -61  -.043  -.043
Perkins   1399  -49  -33   27   17    5   -1   -69  -.077  -.043
HRWilliams 359  -13   -9   -1   10   -2    0   -24  -.079  -.053

Green     1040  -26  -29  -70   -9   -7   -7  -111  -.046  -.074
Ho Grant   444  -23  -26  -10    4    1    3   -54  -.094  -.083
McKey      620  -17    3   -1   38   52    0   -41  -.087  -.090
Oakley     420  -13   -1  -13   -7    1    1   -35  -.110  -.111
Daugherty  458  -23   -1  -14    9  -28   -2   -63  -.138  -.139

vs Eaton   min   FG  FGA  FTA  ORb  DRb  Blk   Pts   eFG%    TS%
totals   15416 -236 -151 -104   83  -67   34  -552  -.034  -.030
per36          -.55 -.35 -.24  .19 -.16  .08 -1.29  -.032  -.028

Utah's pace is right around league avg for the interval.
Ranked by net TS%, from those who were unfazed by Mtn Man at the top, to those he completely owned at the bottom.
Note both Hot Rod and Daugherty from the Cavs could not solve Eaton and the Jazz. Oakley could not, but Ewing was fine. The Hawks' Willis and Carr were unimpressed.

On avg, these guys not only made fewer shots vs Utah, they also attempted fewer, incl. FT. More OReb, but only what you might get from more missed FGA. Only a tiny bump in their blocks.

This eFG% trend is about 50% better than the overall Jazz advantage (-.022) over the league at the time. It may be that it's the entirety of the advantage, if perimeter shooters were less affected by the Utah interior D.

[bchaikin]

The (known) blocks affect the whole opposing team, while the -.050 assigned to his man defense would only be -.010 vs the whole team (if the C takes 1/5 of shots), multiplied by mpg/48.

lots of defensive switches in there too...

Here again is Olajuwon's statistical history vs Eaton, from 1985-1993;

for the flip side of the coin you might want to look at how olajuwon did against a poor shot blocking, not great defensive C, during that 9 year stretch. maybe a kevin duckworth, bill cartwright, or frank brickowski type player...

On avg, these guys not only made fewer shots vs Utah, they also attempted fewer

yes, this is important too...

This eFG% trend is about 50% better than the overall Jazz advantage (-.022) over the league at the time.

the 3 year stretch the jazz lead the league in team defense each year (8687-8889) they allowed just a 45.7% 2pt FG% (45.8% eFG%) when the league average 2pt FG% was 49.0% (48.9% eFG%)...

that's a -3.3% difference from the league average 2pt FG% over 246 games. the next best team was only -2.0% (detroit)...

eaton played 2000+ minutes/season from 8384-9192. those years the jazz allowed a 46.9% 2pt FG% (46.85 eFG%), when the league average was 49.2% (49.0% eFG%), a difference in 2pt FG% allowed of -2.3% (-2.2% in eFG%)...

the next best team - boston - was -1.4% in 2pt FG% (-1.4% in eFG%)...

in both instances (3 year and 9 year stretches) the difference in 2pt FG% allowed between utah and the 2nd best team was the same or close to the same as the difference between the 2nd best team and the 8th/9th best team in lowest 2pt FG% allowed...

that's about as dominant of team shot defense as you'll ever see over such long periods of time (which the league has tracked since the 70-71 season)...

[Mike G]

Of 744 careers I have ranked, just 10 players have less than half the avg Scoring rate, once standardized.
The 'standards' are per 36 minutes and per 100 team and opponent points per game.
This gives an average NBA/ABA scorer a Sco rate of 15.0
In chronological order, these non-scorers with significant careers:

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player   years    G   mpg   Eff%  Sco   Reb   Ast   PF   Stl   TO   Blk    T     rk
Govan    68-76   747   33  .438   6.2   8.8   3.3   3.3   .8   2.3   .6   17.3   666
GJohnson 73-86   961   20  .487   7.0   9.9   1.6   4.9   .9   2.5  3.8   21.1   556
Dunn     78-91  1056   23  .494   6.1   6.2   2.0   3.1  1.9   1.2   .4   15.8   738
Eaton    83-93   949   29  .494   6.7   9.6   1.1   4.1   .5   1.8  4.2   21.1   568
Cage     85-00  1193   14  .538   7.3  10.2   1.0   3.0  1.2    .9   .9   20.0   693

McMillan 87-98   894   25  .498   7.4   5.7   7.6   4.0  2.5   2.5   .6   23.2   381
C Dudley 88-02   929   18  .423   6.1  11.0    .7   4.6   .7   1.4  2.0   18.7   743
EJohnson 94-06   920   20  .526   6.8  10.5    .8   4.6   .9   1.3  2.1   19.6   713
BWallace 97-12  1216   30  .468   7.2  12.7   1.7   2.4  1.6   1.2  2.4   25.7   142
R Evans  02-15   854   19  .488   7.0  13.8    .9   4.2  1.2   2.0   .3   20.4   696

That's George and Ervin (not Magic) Johnson.
George is most similar to Eaton -- a bit higher rate of everything but blocks, which are close.
He ranks just above Eaton due to playoff careers, which we may evaluate later.

Eaton was arguably the best defensive player AND the worst offensive player (to be given many minutes) during his prime years. Does that make him roughly average? Does defense help a team more than offense does?

Check out the top 100 players in total minutes from 1985 thru 1989:
http://bkref.com/tiny/ypdN6
Most played all 5 years at > 1700 min/yr. Two are in the interval for just 3 of the seasons at close to 3000 min/yr (Daugherty, Person).

So among these 100 most regular players, Eaton ranks at the top in these:

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block%           DRtg         DBPM
7.4  Eaton      99  Eaton     5.8  Eaton
5.2  Benjamin   99  Olajuwon  3.1  Olajuwon
4.9  Ewing     101  Malone    2.5  Lister
4.9  Olajuwon  102  Stockton  2.5 Ewing, Dunn
4.9  Lister    103  5 guys    2.5  Benjamin

He's 2nd to Hakeem in Defensive Win Shares; well ahead of Laimbeer, Malone, Cummings.
He's also 17th in DReb% and TReb%, 30th in OReb%
Then he crushes the competition at the bottom of the offensive lineup:

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Off. BPM        Off. WS         Off. Rtg
-4.0  Eaton    -4.7  Eaton      95  Eaton
-2.8  Benjamin   .1 HWilliams   99  HWilliams
-2.5  Mahorn     .7  Sampson   100  Benjamin
-2.2 HWilliams  1.2  Benjamin  100  Sampson
-2.1  Cureton   1.5  Cureton   101  4 guys

That's Herb Williams (Ind) getting swamped here.
Eaton's 3rd (from the bottom) in Steal% and Ast%, 4th in TO% and PER. He played a lot more minutes than those with lower PER (Dunn, Cureton, Mahorn).
Oh yeah: He beats out Darrell Walker for worst eFG%, .439 to .438 (Next worst: John Bagley .453)

[bchaikin]

Eaton was arguably the best defensive player

arguably - his defense generated wins at high rates...

AND the worst offensive player (to be given many minutes)

not even close - you're talking about a player that over an 11 year career averaged just 2.1 TO/40min and only 3.9 missed FGA/40min. so he was personally responsible for very few zero point team possessions on offense. how does that make him the worst offensive player?...

eaton and ben wallace were both great defenders...

wallace had a career scoring rate of 5.7 pts/g playing 29 min/g, eaton 6.0 pts/g playing 29 min/g. both were awful in offensive efficiency, eaton at 1.49 pts/0ptposs, wallace at 1.42 pts/0ptposs...

you have ben wallace ranked 142nd on your list, eaton nowhere to be found...

during his prime years. Does that make him roughly average?

not even close...

did he provide alot of offense? surely no. but did he hurt his team offensively? did his offense cost his team alot of wins? absolutely not - he rarely saw the ball on offense (just a career 0.43 touches/min on offense)...

Does defense help a team more than offense does?

it certainly did for utah from 8384-9192, the 9 years eaton played 2000+ minutes/season for the jazz...

during those 9 years they ranked just 15th in the league in offensive efficiency, but had the league's 5th best regular season W-L record. how?...

because over that long 9 year stretch they ranked 1st in the league in defensive efficiency (103.2 pts/100poss allowed), and it wasn't even close. the difference between utah and the 2nd best defensive team detroit (1.3 pts/100poss) was the same as that between detroit and the 9th best defensive team...

i.e. utah was a dominant defensive team for a long time, due primarily to eaton...

[Mike G]

Bob,
Nobody in the world will argue with the fact that Utah was the best defensive team when Eaton played. This is easily quantifiable.
You say this was "... due primarily to eaton..." How do we know this?
Karl Malone would go on to 3 all-Defensive 1st teams, same as Eaton.
Stockton would make all-D just about every-other season, for a total of 5 times -- same as Eaton.

Eaton had the gaudy block totals, and somebody from the Jazz had to be recognized. In fact, Win Shares (defensive) in the 9 years concurs:

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WS    84-92     Off   Def
87.3  Malone   54.7  32.6
80.6  Stockton 42.3  38.2
42.1  Eaton    -1.6  43.6
38.2  Bailey   11.6  26.6
35.3  Dantley  29.0   6.3
27.2  Green    14.8  12.4

It should be noted that Stockton played 8 years in the interval, Malone the last 7.
Per-season DWS, it's Eaton 4.84, Stockton 4.78, Malone 4.66
Drop Stockton's rookie season (as we did Eaton's), and he has 5.13 DWS/yr.

We know that Def. Win Shares is a team award, adjusted for steals, blocks and D-Reb. So each of these big 3 is benefiting from one of those stats, apart from the team.
Stockton in his career had just .947 as many steals on the road as he got at home. If the difference is in scorekeeper generosity at home, we may conclude that his steal total is .974 legitimate.

Eaton's home Blocks were apparently inflated by some 29%. With an away/home ratio of .774, we can guesstimate that about .88 of his total 'blocks' were real.

you're talking about a player that over an 11 year career averaged just 2.1 TO/40min and only 3.9 missed FGA/40min. so he was personally responsible for very few zero point team possessions on offense. how does that make him the worst offensive player?..

We would expect the worst offensive players to get very few shots. If he only takes a few shots a game, he's not really expected to make difficult shots. Yet he has the worst eFG%/ TS% in the league some years, among players with as many shots or minutes.

Replace Eaton with a better offensive center, and the team ranks higher in O and lower in D. With Ostertag and whomever, they had 4 years with better point differential than any they had with Eaton.

[Mike G]

Here's Jazz and opponent home and road eFG%, broken into 3 eras: the Eaton era, the rest of the Malone/Stockton era, and post-Malone/Stockton:

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eFG% -    Jazz        Opponents
years  home  away    @Uta  @Opp
84-92  .505  .487    .455  .481
93-03  .512  .491    .469  .486
04-16  .504  .482    .488  .505

The Eaton era has the biggest home/away differential (.026) for opponents' shooting and the smallest (.018) for the Jazz'.
For what it's worth.
Also, SLC is at 4200' elevation.

[bchaikin]

Nobody in the world will argue with the fact that Utah was the best defensive team when Eaton played. This is easily quantifiable.

yes...

You say this was "... due primarily to eaton..." How do we know this?

see above...

Eaton's home Blocks were apparently inflated by some 29%.

if a player does not block a shot but alters it such that it does not go in, from a team perspective what's the difference?...

We would expect the worst offensive players to get very few shots.

in 14-15 kobe bryant averaged 33.1 ScOpp/48min (FGA + FTA/2), the 8th highest rate of estimated scoring opportunities over the past decade...

he shot 40% on 2s, 29% on 3s, and averaged 5.1 TO/48min...

and was personally responsible for about 15-16 0ptposs/40min...

i challenge you to find a worst season offensively - i'm sure there are some but not many will lower a team's rate of pts scored per team possession more...

none of eaton's seasons come even close to lowering a team's offpts/poss as much as that kobe season...

Eaton was arguably the best defensive player AND the worst offensive player (to be given many minutes) during his prime years.

not a single one of the seasons where eaton played 2000+ minutes, on a 40 min/g and 82 game basis, lowers a team's offensive pts/poss by as much as say the 3 "prime" seasons of a C like michael olowokandi (9900-0102)...

you want to start awarding WOPYAs (worst offensive player of the year award), you can start with a C like the kandi man...

[Mike G]

One could do an experiment: A team decides to use only 4 players on offense, their 5th guy remaining at the defensive end. When they have the ball, they go 4 against 5.
Their 5th player, of course, never misses a shot and rarely turns it over. Does this help their offense, to have such an error-free player?

The Warriors actually did something like this with Manute Bol. He'd occasionally stroll across midcourt and launch a three; but his value was diminished by going any further; they wanted him to always be back on defense.

Mark Eaton could not take 33 attempts in 48 minutes and make 48% of them. He couldn't make 48% on half that many. He never had a season shooting that well on 1/3 as many!
He got as high as 13 TSA per 100 poss. -- same year he bottomed out at .400 FG%
His best TS% and FG% were when he was taking <6 FGA/100 poss.

In NBA history, nobody has played as many minutes while shooting less often AND with lower TS%
http://bkref.com/tiny/GjEox

[Mike G]

in 14-15 kobe bryant averaged 33.1 ScOpp/48min (FGA + FTA/2), the 8th highest rate of estimated scoring opportunities over the past decade...

he shot 40% on 2s, 29% on 3s, and averaged 5.1 TO/48min...

and was personally responsible for about 15-16 0ptposs/40min...

i challenge you to find a worst season offensively - i'm sure there are some but not many will lower a team's rate of pts scored per team possession more...

Kobe played just 35 games that year -- the first 27 ... 8 of the next 16 ... and none after that.
Here's how the Lakers shot and scored in these intervals:

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Gms   KB   FG%   PPG
1-27  27  .435  102.1
28-43  8  .438   96.1
44-82  0  .434   96.8

This doesn't account for other player availabilities. But in general, the Lakes didn't have much, and one thing they sorely lacked was a shot creator -- esp. when Kobe wasn't on the floor.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/tea ... 5/gamelog/

Since Kobe did not hurt the Lakers' overall FG% when he played -- and he seems to have aided them by over 5 PPG on offense -- at least half of all NBA player-seasons qualify for "worse season offensively"?
They went 10-25 in Kobe games, 21-61 overall; thus 11-36 without him. Some 2-3 wins/82 better before he was shelved.

EDIT: More numbers for the beginning and end of the Lakers season, when Kobe was/wasn't playing:

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'15 LAL    W%    ORtg    FTr   TS%   Stl%  eFG%   TO%
1st 27 G  .296   106.7  .302  .518   7.7   .473   10.7
last 38   .237   103.3  .257  .507   7.1   .470   11.8

Fewer FT and Stl, more TO without Kobe. And slightly worse shooting.

[Mike G]

Player careers ranked 401 to 500

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401-410            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Cedric Ceballos   662  24   20.0   7.8   1.6   1.1   2.3   .4   28.2   .07   .85
Kenny Smith       799  30   15.0   2.4   6.2   1.2   2.6   .1   23.3   .08   .98
Lonnie Shelton    725  28   14.0   7.6   2.5   1.4   2.7  1.0   23.4   .08   .99
Klay Thompson     450  33   21.2   3.7   2.6   1.0   2.0   .6   27.2   .16   .93
DeMar DeRozan     552  34   20.2   4.5   2.9   1.0   2.1   .3   26.8   .06   .97

Danny Granger     621  31   20.1   5.8   2.0   1.1   2.2   .9   27.6   .04   .86
Phil Smith        706  29   17.2   3.5   4.5   1.4   2.8   .3   24.2   .06  1.04
Carl Braun        628  30   16.9   3.2   4.6   1.7   2.3   .2   24.9   .04   .99
Mel Hutchins      464  38   12.6   8.4   3.2   1.4   2.1  1.3   25.4   .06   .88
Michael Redd      645  32   22.4   4.6   2.3   1.0   1.8   .1   28.6   .02   .86

411-420            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Otis Birdsong     728  31   19.3   3.5   3.5   1.4   2.5   .2   25.4   .05   .95
Freddie Lewis     856  34   13.7   3.0   3.9   1.7   2.8   .1   19.7   .14  1.06
Devin Harris      845  26   16.9   3.3   5.6   1.5   2.6   .3   25.5   .07   .74
Dave Robisch      964  25   13.5   8.2   2.3    .7   1.6   .7   23.7   .04  1.04
Brian Grant       814  28   14.1   9.8   1.6    .7   2.0   .9   24.5   .07   .92

Brent Barry      1000  25   14.4   4.3   4.4   1.4   1.9   .4   23.7   .07   .74
Ralph Simpson     748  28   17.4   4.0   4.0   1.7   3.7   .2   23.3   .08   .99
Rick Fox         1040  25   12.8   5.2   3.8   1.4   2.3   .5   21.4   .10   .88
Steve Mix         867  23   14.6   6.9   2.4   1.7   2.2   .3   23.7   .07   .94
Goran Dragic      604  27   17.5   3.9   5.8   1.3   2.9   .2   26.4   .04  1.01

421-430            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Darrell Armstrong 888  24   14.2   4.1   6.1   2.0   2.7   .2   24.8   .06   .77
Mike Dunleavy     959  28   15.3   5.5   2.7    .9   1.8   .4   23.1   .03  1.08
Tyrone Corbin    1130  26   12.0   6.6   2.4   1.5   1.6   .3   21.3   .07   .93
Tim Thomas        876  26   15.8   5.8   2.0   1.0   1.9   .5   22.6   .07  1.11
Samuel Dalembert  911  24   12.0  12.6    .7    .7   2.1  2.6   26.1   .03   .97

Lucius Allen      745  29   15.7   3.4   5.3   1.8   3.3   .4   23.8   .05   .97
Ty Lawson         513  30   16.3   3.4   7.2   1.4   2.6   .1   27.2   .06   .99
Rony Seikaly      692  32   16.2  11.1   1.4    .8   3.2  1.5   26.8   .02   .81
Jrue Holiday      458  32   16.6   4.2   6.2   1.6   3.0   .4   26.9   .05  1.02
Jack Marin        900  29   16.4   5.3   2.5    .8   2.0   .3   22.7   .06   .96

431-440            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Junior Bridgeman  898  25   16.9   4.7   3.1   1.1   2.3   .3   23.7   .06   .95
Jim McMillian     703  33   15.0   5.2   2.5   1.3   1.7   .2   22.7   .12   .95
Orlando Woolridge 887  28   18.6   5.4   2.2    .8   2.5   .8   24.7   .04   .85
Rodney Rogers     892  25   14.8   6.3   2.8   1.3   2.6   .7   23.0   .09   .86
Andray Blatche    591  22   16.3   9.3   2.0   1.4   2.6  1.3   27.3   .07   .93

Rickey Green      998  25   11.8   2.6   7.1   2.0   2.3   .1   23.0   .05  1.04
Purvis Short      860  29   18.7   5.2   2.8   1.3   2.5   .3   25.3   .01   .80
Mike Newlin       859  29   17.0   3.5   4.6   1.2   3.1   .1   23.0   .03  1.02
Tom Meschery      817  30   13.1   7.6   1.9   1.0   1.9  1.2   22.5   .05  1.07
Kerry Kittles     561  33   15.9   4.4   2.9   1.8   1.3   .5   25.0   .09   .96

441-450            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Greg Monroe       457  31   17.7  11.4   2.5   1.3   2.4   .7   31.1   .00   .93
Grant Long       1045  28   11.7   8.0   2.1   1.5   2.0   .4   21.5   .04   .99
Udonis Haslem     960  25   11.4  10.3   1.2    .7   1.3   .4   22.1   .13   .90
Cla. Weatherspoon 930  30   13.3   9.1   1.8   1.1   1.9  1.0   24.6   .01   .76
George Hill       625  29   15.5   4.1   4.0   1.1   1.6   .3   24.1   .14   .94

Thaddeus Young    701  30   16.5   7.2   1.6   1.6   1.7   .5   25.7   .05   .81
Brian Winters     691  31   17.2   3.0   4.5   1.4   2.8   .3   23.9   .06  1.02
Vern Fleming      927  27   13.5   4.3   5.7   1.3   2.5   .2   23.1   .03   .91
James Silas       722  30   17.4   3.3   4.3   1.2   2.8   .2   23.6   .06   .97
Jim Chones        828  30   13.7   9.1   1.9    .6   2.4  1.3   23.5   .04   .81

451-460            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Bryon Russell     937  24   13.0   5.6   1.9   1.5   1.4   .3   20.9   .13  1.07
Herb Williams    1151  25   13.3   7.9   2.2    .7   2.4  2.0   23.7   .02   .66
Kemba Walker      375  34   19.1   4.2   5.2   1.5   2.3   .4   29.3   .03  1.02
Andrew Toney      534  27   20.1   2.8   5.0   1.0   3.9   .3   24.7   .15   .97
Benoit Benjamin   816  27   13.7   9.8   1.6    .8   2.9  2.5   25.4   .02   .87

Charles Smith     630  29   16.8   7.0   1.7   1.0   2.2  1.7   25.7   .09   .84
Larry Costello    754  30   13.4   3.3   5.1   1.9   2.1   .2   22.6   .06   .94
David Greenwood   841  28   11.6  10.0   2.2    .9   2.2  1.1   23.3   .02   .96
Gene Shue         731  34   14.5   3.4   4.0   1.6   2.0   .2   22.4   .05  1.10
Maurice Stokes    203  37   12.6  13.5   5.4   1.9   2.9  2.1   33.9   .01   .64

461-470            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Jose Calderon     766  29   13.6   3.4   7.3   1.1   2.1   .1   24.8   .02  1.01
Kevin Martin      736  30   22.0   4.0   2.1   1.1   2.0   .1   27.0   .03   .82
Warren Jabali     483  34   14.2   5.6   5.0   2.1   3.8   .3   23.4   .07   .97
Michael Adams     672  31   14.9   3.3   6.6   1.9   2.5   .1   25.8   .03   .78
Chris Morris      815  24   14.2   6.5   2.1   1.7   2.1  1.0   23.5   .06   .98

Gerald Wilkins    952  29   15.0   3.7   3.6   1.2   2.3   .3   21.7   .06   .99
Darrell Griffith  799  28   18.3   4.1   2.5   1.5   2.7   .4   23.9   .05   .96
Jim Eakins        842  25   12.4   8.1   2.2    .8   2.7  1.3   21.4   .09   .99
Chris Kaman       753  27   15.3  10.7   1.6    .6   2.9  1.7   26.3   .02   .83
Nicolas Batum     590  31   14.5   6.3   3.9   1.1   2.1   .8   25.1   .06   .80

471-480            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Mario Chalmers    678  28   13.0   3.5   5.1   1.9   2.4   .2   21.9   .15   .97
Craig Ehlo        939  24   12.0   5.2   3.9   1.6   2.0   .4   21.7   .08   .94
Rich Kelley       856  22   10.8   9.8   3.6   1.3   3.5  1.4   23.1   .04   .89
Ben Gordon        771  28   20.5   3.4   3.0    .9   2.7   .2   24.7   .04   .97
Kelly Tripucka    730  30   18.8   4.5   3.2   1.1   2.9   .2   24.6   .03   .88

Aaron McKie       867  25   11.2   4.8   4.0   1.6   1.9   .3   20.6   .10  1.13
Brian Shaw       1068  23    9.5   5.0   5.8   1.1   2.5   .4   20.0   .10   .93
Wally Szczerbiak  705  30   18.1   5.0   2.7    .7   1.8   .3   24.9   .07   .78
Jarrett Jack      748  29   15.1   3.9   5.1   1.0   2.6   .2   23.0   .03  1.11
Jason Williams    732  31   13.0   2.9   7.2   1.5   2.6   .1   23.4   .07   .84

481-490            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Vernon Maxwell    903  29   15.0   3.3   4.1   1.4   2.4   .2   21.9   .06   .93
Jay Humphries     827  29   12.6   3.2   6.2   1.7   2.3   .1   22.6   .04   .99
Walter Dukes      585  27   12.2  10.8   1.4    .8   2.0  1.7   24.2   .07  1.05
Campy Russell     583  30   17.9   5.6   3.4   1.3   3.2   .3   24.8   .03  1.01
John Salley       882  22   10.8   7.0   1.7    .9   1.8  2.0   20.4   .14  1.04

Spud Webb         849  25   13.0   3.0   7.0   1.4   2.7   .2   22.9   .03  1.12
Sedale Threatt   1013  24   13.4   2.7   5.3   1.7   1.9   .2   22.2   .06   .98
Leroy Ellis      1108  26   11.1   8.7   1.6    .9   1.8  1.0   21.3   .05   .88
Satch Sanders    1041  24   12.2   6.5   1.5    .8   1.7   .9   19.6   .12   .94
Muggsy Bogues     905  29    8.9   3.3   8.9   1.9   2.0   .1   23.4   .02   .86

491-500            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Alton Lister     1028  20   10.3  10.4   1.4    .6   2.5  2.5   22.2   .09   .99
Tony Allen        838  22   14.0   5.9   2.1   2.3   2.2   .7   22.8   .12   .87
Antoine Carr     1094  20   15.0   5.8   1.8    .6   1.9  1.7   22.6   .08   .91
Anderson Varejao  701  24   11.2  11.3   1.5   1.3   1.4   .9   24.7   .10   .85
Brandon Jennings  471  32   17.9   3.6   5.9   1.5   2.6   .2   27.5   .03   .91

Wayman Tisdale    862  28   17.8   7.6   1.5    .7   2.1   .7   25.4   .02   .70
Walt Hazzard      784  27   14.3   3.1   5.9   1.3   2.3   .3   23.3   .08   .92
Lionel Hollins    748  28   13.4   3.0   5.3   2.0   3.2   .3   21.3   .11  1.00
Antonio Daniels   948  23   12.5   3.0   4.9   1.0   1.6   .1   20.9   .08  1.12
EddieF Johnson    637  29   17.0   2.7   5.9   1.3   3.1   .2   24.4   .05  1.03

That's "Fast" Eddie Johnson, 1978-87

[permaximum]

If bchaikin assembled a greatest of all-time team, that team couldn't be champions any year in the NBA history.

I bet his team would be like this.

1. Magic Johnson
2. Reggie Miller
3. Adrian Dantley
4. Charles Barkley
5. Artis Gilmore.

But I'm being generous. I fear there's a strong chance he includes the likes of Cedric Maxwell, Deandre Jordan, Tyson Chandler etc.

[Mike G]

It would be nice if someone else would make a comprehensive ranking that they could explain, or at least make the effort to explain.
There's no "right" way to do it; and even if there were, you'd have old-timers complaining the new guys are overrated, and youngsters complaining the old-timers are overrated.
When you have equal complainers on both ends, you can rest.

May as well push on. Ranks in the 500 to 600 range:

Code: Select all

501-510            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Eric Snow         939  27    9.3   3.6   6.9   1.5   2.2   .2   20.5   .10   .97
Cuttino Mobley    773  37   16.9   4.2   2.8   1.2   2.1   .4   23.4   .03   .77
Paul Seymour      526  31   14.0   3.2   5.0   1.8   2.1   .2   23.2   .10   .98
Billy Owens       611  30   13.5   8.3   3.4   1.1   2.6   .6   24.1   .02  1.04
Rafer Alston      722  29   12.9   3.7   5.8   1.5   2.2   .2   22.9   .07   .93

Tyrone Hill       875  28   12.4  11.3   1.0    .9   1.9   .6   23.4   .08   .76
Tyreke Evans      437  33   17.8   5.6   5.2   1.5   3.0   .4   28.0   .01   .74
Matt Barnes       937  24   12.4   7.0   2.4   1.2   1.9   .7   21.7   .09   .89
Amir Johnson      682  23   13.4   9.8   1.8   1.0   1.8  1.7   25.5   .03  1.03
Dell Curry       1130  22   17.1   3.8   2.6   1.4   1.8   .3   23.5   .04   .80

511-520            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Slater Martin     682  36   11.8   2.8   4.8   1.8   1.8   .1   20.1   .12   .94
Dick VanArsdale   955  34   15.8   3.6   3.3   1.1   1.9   .2   22.1   .03   .74
Bobby Jackson     813  22   14.7   4.9   3.9   1.4   2.0   .1   23.3   .07   .93
Ken Norman        659  29   15.1   7.5   2.4   1.0   2.2   .8   24.5   .02   .98
Zaza Pachulia     942  21   12.0  10.3   1.9   1.2   2.3   .6   23.0   .05   .87

Ray Felix         675  24   15.9   9.6   1.0    .6   2.2  1.5   25.5   .05   .80
Emeka Okafor      596  32   14.7  12.3    .9    .8   1.9  1.9   28.5   .01   .54
Kevin Porter      692  29   13.4   2.0   9.3   1.6   4.0   .1   23.5   .05   .91
Matt Harpring     719  26   16.3   7.6   1.9   1.0   2.0   .2   24.3   .06   .84
Spencer Hawes     661  23   13.7   9.4   2.6    .6   2.3  1.5   25.2   .04   .96

521-530            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Isaiah Rider      584  32   19.2   4.6   3.2    .8   2.9   .3   24.6   .04   .96
James Donaldson   999  28   10.9  10.1    .9    .5   1.9  1.6   21.9   .05  1.01
Larry Jones       581  35   15.5   4.0   3.6   1.5   2.0   .3   23.2   .06  1.01
James Posey       929  27   11.8   6.5   2.1   1.4   1.5   .4   20.7   .07   .97
Jamaal Tinsley    473  29   12.1   4.3   8.3   2.0   3.4   .4   25.0   .07   .93

Kurt Rambis      1014  19    8.6   9.8   1.6   1.4   2.0   .9   20.0   .14   .98
Bill Bradley      837  31   13.9   3.3   3.8    .8   1.9   .2   20.1   .12   .93
Willie Anderson   596  29   14.5   4.7   4.5   1.3   2.6   .7   23.6   .06   .94
Rick Mahorn      1218  23    9.9   9.3   1.4    .8   1.9  1.3   20.2   .08   .89
Lou Williams      651  26   19.0   3.2   3.7   1.3   2.1   .3   25.9   .06   .82

531-540            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Kyle Korver      1055  27   14.4   4.3   2.3    .9   1.4   .5   21.0   .09   .87
Ricky Sobers      850  28   15.3   3.2   5.1   1.6   3.7   .3   21.7   .04   .96
Nazr Mohammed    1086  16   13.0  10.6    .8    .9   1.9  1.3   24.0   .07   .90
Leandro Barbosa   902  22   17.1   3.2   3.0   1.2   1.9   .2   22.8   .11   .84
LaPhonso Ellis    639  28   14.6   8.3   2.0    .9   2.0  1.0   24.3   .03  1.00

LaSalle Thompson 1004  22   11.0  10.7   1.6   1.2   2.6  1.5   22.8   .03   .87
BJ Armstrong      850  24   14.3   2.6   4.5   1.0   1.6   .1   21.7   .12   .91
Sherman Douglas   782  28   13.4   2.9   7.4   1.3   2.9   .1   23.3   .02   .94
Curtis Perry      532  29   11.4  10.1   2.3   1.3   2.4  1.0   23.4   .10   .91
Jay Vincent       611  27   17.4   7.2   2.2    .9   2.5   .4   24.8   .06   .83

541-550            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Neal Walk         576  24   15.9   9.6   2.8    .9   2.4   .7   27.0   .01   .79
Rodney Stuckey    640  28   16.9   4.1   4.2   1.2   2.4   .2   24.4   .04   .92
Don Kojis         823  24   15.5   6.5   1.9   1.3   2.0   .2   23.0   .02  1.21
Dan Schayes      1204  19   12.0   8.2   1.7    .8   2.3  1.2   20.7   .06   .96
Red Robbins       653  32   11.3   8.7   1.7    .7   1.9   .7   20.9   .10  1.02

Jim Paxson        836  27   17.1   2.7   3.4   1.5   1.9   .1   23.4   .05   .88
Charlie Ward      702  22   10.3   4.2   6.6   1.9   2.4   .3   22.1   .10  1.01
Andy Phillip      524  32   10.5   4.0   6.5   2.1   2.1   .4   23.0   .08   .87
Don Ohl           774  31   15.8   2.6   3.3   1.4   1.9   .0   21.4   .06  1.08
Kendrick Perkins  924  22    9.7  10.3   1.6    .6   2.6  1.9   20.9   .16   .87

551-560            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Loy Vaught        702  24   13.8  10.3   1.3   1.1   1.7   .5   24.7   .02  1.07
Kenny Carr        707  26   14.3  10.1   1.7   1.0   2.8   .6   23.5   .05   .88
Brandon Bass      764  23   15.1   7.8   1.3    .6   1.5  1.0   24.0   .08   .92
Channing Frye     764  24   14.1   7.8   1.4    .8   1.4  1.0   23.4   .04   .97
Kenny Sears       531  28   17.4   7.2   1.9   1.0   2.2  1.1   26.0   .00   .92

George Johnson    961  20    7.0   9.9   1.6    .9   2.5  3.8   21.1   .05  1.12
Derrick Favors    433  26   17.0  10.6   1.5   1.1   2.1  1.8   29.8   .01   .89
Johnny Davis      793  28   14.8   2.4   5.2   1.1   2.5   .2   21.8   .05   .99
Fred Carter       637  30   16.0   4.0   4.0   1.3   2.1   .2   23.6   .05   .91
Ricky Davis       747  30   16.5   4.4   3.8   1.2   2.6   .3   23.6   .02   .77

561-570            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Dave Corzine      949  23   11.3   8.6   2.2    .6   2.2  1.4   21.8   .06   .86
Marvin Webster    678  22   10.2  10.4   1.8    .5   2.5  2.2   22.6   .10  1.05
Darren Collison   524  29   16.0   3.3   5.8   1.4   2.6   .2   24.9   .04   .99
Doug Collins      447  34   18.9   3.3   3.4   1.3   3.1   .3   23.7   .08  1.08
Donnie Freeman    708  32   16.0   3.0   3.5   1.0   2.2   .3   21.5   .09   .89

Wayne Cooper     1052  20   10.9   9.7   1.2    .5   1.9  2.5   22.5   .06   .90
Mark Olberding   1000  25   11.6   7.0   3.0    .9   2.6   .4   19.6   .06   .98
Mark Eaton        949  29    6.7   9.6   1.1    .5   1.8  4.2   21.1   .08   .93
Reggie Williams   623  27   14.8   5.2   3.2   1.7   2.3   .9   23.7   .03   .98
Shane Battier    1089  30   10.9   5.1   2.1   1.2   1.1  1.0   19.8   .09   .72

571-580            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Derek Anderson    639  29   15.7   4.3   4.4   1.4   2.1   .2   24.2   .03   .74
Kenny Thomas      655  27   12.3   9.5   2.1   1.1   2.2   .6   22.9   .04  1.00
Corl. Williamson  886  22   17.0   5.8   1.8    .8   2.3   .5   22.7   .05   .90
Olden Polynice   1093  23   11.0  10.2   1.0    .7   1.6   .9   21.6   .03  1.00
Tree Rollins     1236  21    8.4   9.3    .9    .7   1.5  3.5   21.8   .06   .84

Bobby Smith       881  26   15.3   5.1   2.6   1.0   1.5   .4   23.0   .02   .92
Mario Elie        845  26   12.3   3.8   3.4   1.2   1.7   .2   19.5   .14   .97
Darnell Hillman   772  26   11.0   8.5   1.7   1.1   2.8  1.7   20.5   .11   .90
Nate Robinson     650  22   17.3   3.8   4.1   1.4   2.2   .1   24.5   .04  1.03
Bob Netolicky     680  34   13.3   7.3   1.3    .4   1.8   .6   20.6   .10   .96

581-590            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Darrall Imhoff    854  22    9.3   8.9   2.4   1.2   1.8  1.4   21.3   .07  1.03
Keith Erickson    853  25   11.8   5.2   3.4   1.2   1.8   .3   20.0   .11   .97
Shawn Bradley     873  23   11.0   9.2   1.0    .9   1.9  3.7   24.5   .03   .74
Terry Tyler       888  25   12.2   7.2   1.5   1.3   1.8  2.1   23.0   .01   .96
Wil Jones         754  30   11.3   7.4   2.3   1.3   2.6   .9   20.2   .04   .98

Darrell Walker    745  26   10.4   6.0   5.7   2.0   2.7   .4   22.7   .03   .74
Lionel Simmons    458  30   14.2   7.7   3.9   1.4   2.6  1.0   25.9   .01  1.06
Steve Hawes       739  23   11.5   9.1   2.7   1.1   2.2   .6   22.4   .04   .98
Troy Murphy       733  27   14.1  10.3   1.7    .9   1.6   .5   25.6   .00   .93
Brendan Haywood   847  23   11.1   9.7    .8    .6   1.6  2.1   22.5   .11   .84

591-600            G   Min   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk    T     po%   p/r
Brian Taylor      638  32   13.4   2.8   4.3   2.3   2.2   .3   21.8   .07   .86
Luke Ridnour      852  26   12.9   3.3   5.7   1.4   2.3   .3   22.1   .02   .92
Mike Gale         906  25    8.8   3.6   4.8   2.4   2.5   .7   18.8   .08  1.09
Chris Gatling     713  20   17.1   9.0   1.1   1.1   2.5   .9   25.6   .02   .98
Raef LaFrentz     597  26   13.8   8.4   1.4    .7   1.2  2.3   25.6   .06   .78

Dee Brown         636  28   13.6   3.4   4.5   1.6   1.9   .4   22.7   .04  1.05
Kevin Loughery    792  30   15.5   2.7   4.1   1.6   2.0   .1   22.1   .05   .90
Marvin Williams   834  29   13.6   7.0   1.5   1.0   1.3   .6   22.3   .05   .78
Walt Williams     742  26   15.4   5.3   3.0   1.2   2.4   .8   23.1   .03   .80
Jim Fox           770  23   12.6   9.4   2.2    .8   2.0   .4   22.9   .03   .90

Still seeing the occasional all-star.
The PO/RS greater than 1.0 are getting scarcer; about like the distribution of prime numbers?