If bchaikin assembled a greatest of all-time team, that team couldn't be champions any year in the NBA history.
why?...
I bet his team would be like this.
1. Magic Johnson
2. Reggie Miller
3. Adrian Dantley
4. Charles Barkley
5. Artis Gilmore.
all HOF players, not a bad selection...
but you said team, not starting five. can i add to the above five players maurice cheeks, alvin robertson, bobby jones, larry nance, and mark eaton (or ben wallace)?...
those ten would make a heck of an all-time team...
or how about a starting five of slater martin, hal greer, paul arizin, bob pettit, and neil johnston, with a bench of gary payton, alvin robertson, kawhi leonard, anthony davis, and tim duncan?...
i'd take either team and be content...
But I'm being generous.
you're just a generous kind of guy...
I fear there's a strong chance he includes the likes of Cedric Maxwell, Deandre Jordan, Tyson Chandler etc.
lay your fears arrest...
It would be nice if someone else would make a comprehensive ranking that they could explain, or at least make the effort to explain.
i thought you posted these rankings to elicit discussion. if not then why did you post them in a stats analysis discussion group?...
There's no "right" way to do it;
correct...
and even if there were, you'd have old-timers complaining the new guys are overrated, and youngsters complaining the old-timers are overrated.
correct again...
When you have equal complainers on both ends, you can rest.
there's no rest for the statistically-inclined weary...
NBA-ABA careers ranked, 1952-2016
Re: NBA-ABA careers ranked, 1952-2016
D-Rell rated almost 2200 players in June. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9170
It is up to you guys if you want to compare / discuss the similarities and differences.
It is up to you guys if you want to compare / discuss the similarities and differences.
Re: NBA-ABA careers ranked, 1952-2016
That's one reason. Another is to get people to wonder if they can do a similar thing, maybe better; and how to go about it.bchaikin wrote: i thought you posted these rankings to elicit discussion. ...
My objective has been to be as objective as possible. Rather than perpetuate the over-rating of certain icons, while overlooking others, it seems if we can quantify the aspects that make a career "great" or "successful", we can strip away lots of the subjective stuff. What's left, then, should be a clearer picture.
It's also nice to confirm or refute my own observations. Was Kareem great in the 1985 playoffs, or was it just how I remember it?
Did he generally step up (or fade) in his playoffs? How did this affect his teams in postseasons? How does it all weigh on his career?
It was cool to develop ways of seeing all this, and now there are other ways: PER, Win Shares, BPM, etc. I could probably re-do my rankings using these b-r.com resources, and likely end up with very similar lists. But then again, so could someone else.
Re: NBA-ABA careers ranked, 1952-2016
The last 100Guys who have never gotten into playoffs, or just for a few minutes, have .93 in their p/r column. This is just the average ratio, assigned for averaging purposes mostly.
Code: Select all
601-610 G Min Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk T po% p/r
Rich Jones 545 33 13.7 6.8 2.8 1.1 2.3 .3 22.1 .06 .87
Gerald Henderson 951 21 12.9 2.7 5.2 1.7 2.7 .2 20.3 .08 .95
Don Buse 1043 27 7.9 3.1 5.4 2.6 1.5 .2 19.7 .07 .86
Jim Washington 811 29 11.3 8.6 1.6 .7 1.7 .9 21.0 .05 .98
Frank Brickowski 768 22 14.5 7.3 2.7 1.3 2.8 .6 22.8 .03 .84
Mike Bantom 735 28 13.7 7.5 2.7 1.1 2.8 .8 22.4 .03 .75
Dick Snyder 993 26 15.1 3.2 3.6 1.0 1.9 .5 21.6 .02 .83
Pooh Richardson 643 30 12.1 3.5 7.6 1.5 2.2 .2 24.6 .00 .74
Jeff Green 674 32 16.0 5.7 1.7 .9 1.9 .6 22.7 .05 .85
Nick Collison 966 21 10.4 9.2 1.7 .9 1.6 .9 20.9 .08 .94
611-620 G Min Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk T po% p/r
Cincy Powell 660 31 13.9 6.7 2.2 .7 2.6 .4 20.2 .10 .93
Greg Anthony 859 20 11.4 3.0 6.4 1.8 2.1 .2 22.1 .12 .79
Brevin Knight 743 25 9.7 3.6 8.7 2.4 2.6 .2 23.8 .01 .78
Jamaal Magloire 724 21 12.4 11.3 1.0 .5 2.4 1.4 23.3 .06 1.04
Stacey Augmon 1078 21 12.5 5.1 2.5 1.5 1.9 .5 20.2 .06 .87
Ruben Patterson 668 24 16.0 6.1 2.4 1.6 2.5 .5 24.0 .02 .80
Sam Bowie 540 27 12.5 9.4 2.4 .7 2.4 2.2 24.9 .04 .73
Theo Ratliff 847 25 10.9 8.3 .8 .7 1.7 3.3 22.8 .04 .93
Austin Carr 692 29 17.6 3.3 3.3 1.0 2.2 .2 23.2 .02 .96
Brad Davis 1006 23 11.5 2.7 6.5 1.1 2.1 .2 20.9 .04 .88
621-630 G Min Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk T po% p/r
Ramon Sessions 635 24 15.7 4.2 5.3 1.0 2.6 .1 24.1 .04 .71
George Lynch 834 23 9.4 7.7 2.2 1.5 1.7 .5 19.8 .08 1.03
Byron Beck 808 26 12.3 7.3 1.6 .9 1.6 .2 20.0 .08 .97
Don Chaney 854 24 10.9 4.9 3.0 1.8 2.3 .7 19.0 .09 .99
Darnell Valentine 646 23 11.3 3.1 6.7 2.1 2.9 .1 21.6 .05 1.17
Roy Hinson 507 31 15.5 8.1 1.1 .7 2.3 2.0 24.6 .02 1.15
Vinny DelNegro 823 25 12.8 3.3 4.4 1.0 1.4 .1 20.8 .07 .96
K.C. Jones 781 26 8.5 3.3 5.5 1.9 1.8 .2 18.6 .12 .95
Malik Rose 893 17 12.6 8.6 1.6 1.1 2.5 .7 21.2 .08 .97
Terry Mills 692 24 14.8 7.9 1.9 .8 1.7 .6 23.7 .02 .85
631-640 G Min Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk T po% p/r
Chris Mills 587 30 14.2 6.4 2.4 .9 1.5 .5 22.9 .03 .96
Gordon Hayward 447 31 18.4 5.0 3.9 1.2 2.5 .5 26.8 .01 .49
Phil Jackson 867 18 11.8 7.0 1.9 1.0 2.1 .7 19.6 .08 1.10
Dana Barros 872 23 15.6 2.9 4.9 1.3 2.1 .1 23.5 .01 .73
Quen. Richardson 819 26 13.3 6.7 1.8 1.1 1.5 .3 21.5 .04 .83
Larry Smith 914 26 8.0 12.1 1.3 1.1 1.9 .7 20.4 .03 1.02
Char. Villanueva 665 21 17.2 8.4 1.3 .8 1.7 .9 26.5 .00 .99
Connie Dierking 718 22 12.8 7.9 2.1 1.1 2.0 1.2 22.9 .02 1.06
Mike Woodson 796 26 16.8 3.2 2.9 1.6 2.3 .5 22.7 .02 .85
Quinn Buckner 787 22 10.9 4.0 5.8 2.6 3.2 .2 20.9 .06 .81
641-650 G Min Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk T po% p/r
Curtis Rowe 618 31 12.8 7.8 1.8 .6 2.5 .6 20.3 .05 1.08
Vlad. Radmanovic 784 22 13.0 6.3 2.1 1.1 1.8 .5 21.1 .06 1.00
Chris Ford 852 28 10.6 3.7 4.1 1.9 2.2 .3 19.0 .06 .93
Voshon Lenard 596 27 16.4 3.8 2.8 .9 1.7 .3 22.6 .06 .98
Terry Dischinger 658 27 16.6 5.7 2.2 1.1 2.1 .8 23.8 .01 .66
Johnny Newman 1195 24 14.9 3.2 2.0 1.3 2.0 .3 19.1 .03 1.04
Jim Brewer 730 23 8.1 9.0 2.2 1.2 1.6 1.1 20.2 .04 1.13
ML Carr 735 24 12.6 6.1 2.6 1.9 2.5 .6 21.3 .06 .73
Wesley Person 760 28 15.0 4.3 2.1 1.0 1.1 .4 22.0 .03 .87
Clem Haskins 709 25 15.6 3.5 4.5 1.2 2.2 .3 23.2 .02 .86
651-660 G Min Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk T po% p/r
Rado. Nesterovich 870 22 11.0 8.6 1.6 .6 1.4 1.8 22.1 .06 .71
Kevin Duckworth 751 26 14.4 7.8 1.1 .6 2.5 .6 20.7 .10 .90
John Block 611 24 15.0 7.7 1.8 1.3 2.1 .8 24.2 .02 .87
Allen Leavell 756 23 12.4 2.4 6.3 1.9 2.7 .2 21.7 .06 .90
Lindsey Hunter 1080 23 11.4 3.2 3.8 1.7 1.7 .2 19.3 .08 .76
Ryan Anderson 508 26 18.5 8.1 1.2 .8 1.4 .5 27.2 .04 .60
John Bagley 671 26 10.4 3.5 7.5 1.5 3.0 .1 21.3 .03 1.00
Travis Best 771 21 12.2 2.9 5.6 1.4 2.0 .1 21.1 .07 .96
Jon McGlocklin 845 27 14.5 2.6 3.6 .8 1.8 .1 19.9 .07 .91
Anthony Peeler 884 25 12.9 3.8 3.3 1.3 1.7 .2 20.1 .06 .88
661-670 G Min Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk T po% p/r
Dennis Scott 674 29 15.5 3.6 2.5 1.0 1.5 .4 21.6 .07 .85
Jimmy Walker 710 34 16.6 2.5 3.5 1.1 2.0 .2 22.1 .01 .88
Rory Sparrow 859 27 10.9 2.8 6.3 1.3 2.4 .2 19.9 .03 .97
George Carter 508 34 15.4 6.0 2.0 1.0 2.8 .3 20.8 .06 .97
J.J. Redick 693 24 17.7 2.7 2.6 .6 1.5 .1 22.3 .12 .81
Gerald Govan 747 33 6.2 8.8 3.3 .8 2.3 .6 17.3 .08 1.10
Johnny Dawkins 554 28 12.8 3.2 6.6 1.5 2.6 .1 22.6 .03 1.01
Rex Chapman 678 29 16.7 3.1 3.2 1.1 1.9 .2 22.6 .02 .91
O.J. Mayo 573 31 16.3 3.9 3.1 1.2 2.4 .3 22.2 .04 .90
Kent Benson 705 23 11.8 8.1 2.3 1.3 2.3 1.2 22.4 .03 .75
671-680 G Min Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk T po% p/r
John Long 911 25 16.3 3.7 2.4 1.4 2.4 .3 21.4 .02 .71
Bo Outlaw 935 23 8.8 7.5 2.5 1.4 1.7 1.9 21.1 .02 .69
Greg Ostertag 845 20 8.0 10.3 1.0 .4 1.5 2.9 21.4 .11 .93
Beno Udrih 845 22 13.8 3.5 4.9 1.1 2.3 .1 21.6 .06 .71
Bill Melchionni 700 26 11.8 2.1 6.3 1.4 2.4 .2 20.3 .07 .95
Bob Kauffman 525 26 14.6 8.2 3.6 .8 2.3 .3 25.0 .00 .93
John Williamson 547 30 17.9 2.6 3.1 1.3 3.0 .3 21.6 .06 .90
Tony Campbell 718 21 17.1 4.8 2.3 1.3 2.4 .4 23.0 .02 .78
Will Perdue 894 15 9.6 10.3 1.4 .5 2.0 1.3 20.5 .09 .91
Mahm. Abdul-Rauf 601 27 17.9 2.4 4.5 1.1 2.1 .1 24.2 .03 .78
681-690 G Min Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk T po% p/r
Cliff Levingston 912 20 10.8 8.3 1.3 1.0 1.6 1.1 20.5 .06 .81
Steve Johnson 629 22 16.8 8.5 1.7 .7 3.6 1.3 23.7 .01 .84
Mark West 1176 19 9.9 8.6 .6 .5 1.9 2.2 19.4 .08 .96
Lorenzen Wright 793 24 11.2 9.6 1.2 .9 1.6 1.1 21.8 .02 .91
Blue Edwards 738 26 13.9 4.7 2.6 1.4 2.2 .5 20.7 .04 .86
Bob Sura 667 24 12.5 5.2 5.7 1.4 2.7 .3 23.0 .00 .43
Lamond Murray 750 25 14.7 6.0 1.9 1.3 2.2 .6 21.9 .01 .80
Dave Gambee 786 20 15.1 6.3 1.5 .8 1.9 .9 22.0 .05 .78
Desmond Mason 659 31 14.4 5.7 1.9 .8 1.9 .4 20.9 .03 .95
Tom VanArsdale 929 31 15.7 4.2 2.4 .9 1.8 .1 20.9 .00 .93
691-700 G Min Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk T po% p/r
Tom Hawkins 860 24 10.5 6.2 1.5 .8 1.5 .9 17.9 .10 1.05
George McCloud 779 23 13.1 4.6 3.3 1.1 2.0 .4 20.5 .02 1.13
Michael Cage 1193 14 7.3 10.2 1.0 1.2 .9 .9 20.0 .07 .96
Stew Johnson 693 29 13.8 5.8 1.6 1.1 1.6 .3 20.6 .03 1.00
Wesley Matthews 551 33 16.7 3.6 2.2 1.3 1.5 .2 22.6 .06 .72
Reggie Evans 854 19 7.0 13.8 .9 1.2 2.0 .3 20.4 .06 .99
Ed Pinckney 817 20 10.8 8.4 1.4 1.3 1.7 .9 20.8 .03 1.00
Clyde Lee 793 27 8.7 10.7 1.3 .5 1.6 .4 19.1 .07 .96
Morris Peterson 743 27 14.3 4.7 2.0 1.2 1.3 .3 21.1 .03 .81
Mike Riordan 711 25 13.8 3.5 3.3 1.1 1.8 .2 20.0 .09 .88Re: NBA-ABA careers ranked, 1952-2016
There was this guy, Billy Ray Bates, who played mostly for the Blazers 1980-83:Appearing in two brief postseasons as a sort of designated scorer.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sbi01.html
He isn't in my Careers list, as he's well short of the requisite 10,000 eTotals.
But there's at least this one example that would overtop this list of best-to-worst playoff over-production -- defined as PO/RS T rates -- in the most PO minutes.No doubt there are some with <31 min and even worse RS-PO translation.
Duncan, with the most PO minutes ever, is both best and worst with as many minutes.
(Below Duncan, we're seeing worst PO/RS ratio in most minutes.)
Bobby Wanzer's 1951 title run with the Royals is not included in his career summary; nor are the years before.
In 1951 RS, he has 6.9 Win Shares in 68 RS games. Then in PO, 2.7 in 14 G -- almost double the per-game rate.
His career RS TS% was .496 -- very good for a guard in that era. In PO, it was .545
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ebo01.html
Code: Select all
BRB G Min PPG TS% PER WS/48 BPM
RS 187 3328 11.7 .525 18.1 .099 -1.8
PO 6 219 26.7 .594 23.2 .152 3.5
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sbi01.html
He isn't in my Careers list, as he's well short of the requisite 10,000 eTotals.
But there's at least this one example that would overtop this list of best-to-worst playoff over-production -- defined as PO/RS T rates -- in the most PO minutes.
Code: Select all
over*min poMin po/rs
Bimbo Coles 195 1.35
Don Kojis 336 1.21
Bobby Wanzer 710 1.20
Johnny Moore 1084 1.17
Baron Davis 1850 1.15
Aaron McKie 2046 1.13
Roger Brown 4030 1.10
Isiah Thomas 4216 1.10
Robert Horry 6772 1.08
Michael Jordan 7474 1.06
Bill Russell 7497 1.03
Scottie Pippen 8105 1.01
LeBron James 8373 1.00
Kobe Bryant 8577 .965
Tim Duncan * 9367 .964
Karl Malone 7907 .915
Tony Parker 7479 .90
Gary Payton 5452 .84
Cliff Robinson 3887 .81
Bill Cartwright 3496 .76
Shane Battier 3025 .72
Wesley Matthews 1171 .72
R. Nesterovich 1106 .71
Ramon Sessions 596 .71
Herb Williams 522 .66
Ryan Anderson 501 .60
Emeka Okafor 188 .54
Gordon Hayward 123 .49
Bob Sura 31 .43
Duncan, with the most PO minutes ever, is both best and worst with as many minutes.
(Below Duncan, we're seeing worst PO/RS ratio in most minutes.)
Bobby Wanzer's 1951 title run with the Royals is not included in his career summary; nor are the years before.
In 1951 RS, he has 6.9 Win Shares in 68 RS games. Then in PO, 2.7 in 14 G -- almost double the per-game rate.
His career RS TS% was .496 -- very good for a guard in that era. In PO, it was .545
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ebo01.html
Re: NBA-ABA careers ranked, 1952-2016
Of 744 players in this big list, 132 were in the league last season.
Rank among all players is shown in column #1.
eG = equivalent games = Minutes/36. This (and other numbers) includes playoffs.
Eff% = effective combined shooting% = Pts/(FGA*2 + FTA)
Sco, Reb, etc are per 36 minutes with many other adjustments. Notably, per 100 pts and 44 reb per team, per game.
e484 = equivalent wins per 484 minutes of play. Avg = 1.00
P-R = PO-RS e484. Unadjusted for competition, most players do less 'winning' in playoffs than in RS.
po% = fraction of career minutes in playoffs
So, for those who don't care about historical comparisons, here are current players only (as of 2015-16)
Rank among all players is shown in column #1.
eG = equivalent games = Minutes/36. This (and other numbers) includes playoffs.
Eff% = effective combined shooting% = Pts/(FGA*2 + FTA)
Sco, Reb, etc are per 36 minutes with many other adjustments. Notably, per 100 pts and 44 reb per team, per game.
e484 = equivalent wins per 484 minutes of play. Avg = 1.00
P-R = PO-RS e484. Unadjusted for competition, most players do less 'winning' in playoffs than in RS.
po% = fraction of career minutes in playoffs
So, for those who don't care about historical comparisons, here are current players only (as of 2015-16)
Code: Select all
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
2 LeBron James 1302 .569 29.1 7.6 6.6 1.6 3.2 .7 2.60 .01 .18
5 Tim Duncan 1576 .541 23.7 12.5 3.4 .8 2.7 2.3 2.34 -.13 .17
10 Kevin Garnett 1548 .539 20.9 11.6 4.0 1.4 2.4 1.5 2.08 -.16 .09
13 Kobe Bryant 1590 .540 26.9 5.5 4.6 1.5 3.0 .5 1.97 -.11 .15
17 Dirk Nowitzki 1475 .572 25.4 8.7 2.6 .9 1.9 .9 2.02 -.04 .11
19 Dwyane Wade 1025 .551 26.8 5.4 5.9 1.7 3.4 .9 2.13 -.21 .17
28 Paul Pierce 1437 .558 23.6 6.4 3.7 1.4 2.9 .6 1.69 -.21 .12
31 Chris Paul 843 .567 21.4 4.8 9.7 2.4 2.5 .1 2.14 -.10 .09
32 Pau Gasol 1154 .557 20.3 10.0 3.4 .5 2.4 1.7 1.78 -.17 .10
36 Russell Westbrook 641 .518 23.8 6.3 8.2 1.9 4.0 .3 2.06 .10 .13
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
37 Kevin Durant 779 .590 28.6 7.2 3.5 1.1 3.1 1.0 2.15 -.15 .14
38 Dwight Howard 957 .579 20.8 14.1 1.6 1.0 3.2 2.2 1.96 .05 .10
44 Manu Ginobili 833 .576 22.3 5.3 5.3 1.8 2.8 .4 1.70 -.21 .19
49 Tony Parker 1170 .537 21.4 3.5 6.8 1.0 2.8 .1 1.50 -.28 .18
50 Vince Carter 1226 .528 22.6 5.6 3.9 1.2 2.2 .7 1.63 -.06 .06
56 Carmelo Anthony 982 .534 25.9 7.0 3.0 1.1 2.9 .5 1.79 -.17 .07
66 Stephen Curry 542 .605 25.2 4.5 6.8 1.8 3.4 .2 1.92 .10 .11
79 Amar'e Stoudemire 796 .586 24.4 9.4 1.4 .9 2.8 1.5 1.79 -.11 .08
80 Chris Bosh 973 .559 21.1 9.2 2.0 .8 2.0 1.1 1.62 -.35 .09
85 Elton Brand 1001 .541 19.0 10.1 2.3 1.0 2.2 2.0 1.63 -.28 .03
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
89 Rajon Rondo 688 .495 13.1 5.8 9.3 2.0 3.2 .1 1.36 .25 .14
93 Zach Randolph 933 .515 20.1 11.6 2.0 .9 2.4 .3 1.61 -.30 .07
94 Josh Smith 870 .495 16.6 8.9 3.3 1.3 2.8 2.1 1.40 -.03 .07
95 Blake Griffin 450 .547 23.6 10.3 4.3 1.0 2.6 .6 2.07 -.30 .11
102 James Harden 565 .589 23.9 5.1 5.3 1.6 3.3 .4 1.71 -.17 .13
117 Andre Miller 1172 .523 15.4 4.6 7.4 1.4 2.8 .2 1.19 -.18 .05
118 Deron Williams 831 .545 18.9 3.7 8.0 1.1 3.1 .3 1.43 -.12 .09
126 David West 834 .531 18.9 8.7 2.6 .9 2.0 .9 1.44 -.24 .09
131 LaMarcus Aldridge 748 .526 21.1 9.4 1.9 .8 1.7 1.1 1.67 -.24 .06
137 Paul Millsap 636 .546 18.4 9.7 2.7 1.6 2.2 1.3 1.59 -.28 .09
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
143 Kevin Love 489 .552 21.0 13.3 2.6 .7 2.2 .5 1.97 -.33 .04
150 Al Jefferson 707 .520 20.1 11.2 1.7 .9 1.7 1.5 1.74 -.43 .02
151 Marc Gasol 592 .547 17.1 9.2 3.3 1.0 2.1 1.6 1.50 .00 .10
158 Al Horford 608 .558 16.7 10.1 3.0 .9 1.7 1.4 1.53 -.29 .12
160 Jason Terry 1214 .551 17.9 3.0 4.7 1.3 2.1 .2 1.07 -.22 .09
163 Joe Johnson 1252 .525 17.8 4.3 3.9 .9 2.1 .2 1.05 -.19 .09
174 Andre Iguodala 975 .539 14.6 5.8 4.4 1.7 2.2 .5 1.05 -.18 .09
185 Paul George 398 .542 21.1 7.2 3.7 1.8 2.8 .5 1.55 -.06 .16
203 Derrick Rose 440 .511 22.1 4.1 6.2 .9 3.1 .4 1.57 .18 .10
207 Joakim Noah 525 .528 12.6 12.3 3.6 1.0 2.2 1.6 1.39 -.22 .11
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
210 David Lee 646 .564 17.6 11.3 2.5 .9 2.2 .4 1.48 -.29 .02
211 Ron Artest 956 .501 15.4 5.4 3.0 2.0 2.0 .6 .97 -.16 .09
219 Rich. Jefferson 1005 .557 17.5 5.5 2.6 .9 2.0 .4 .98 -.14 .10
220 Kawhi Leonard 338 .587 19.2 8.1 2.4 2.1 1.5 .8 1.59 -.17 .20
228 Nene Hilario 683 .570 16.6 8.7 2.4 1.5 2.5 1.0 1.23 -.30 .08
230 Kyrie Irving 326 .550 23.9 3.8 5.5 1.5 2.9 .4 1.62 .19 .11
234 Luol Deng 873 .523 17.0 6.8 2.3 1.0 1.8 .5 1.11 -.12 .08
235 Kyle Lowry 585 .537 16.9 5.1 6.5 1.6 2.6 .3 1.33 -.25 .07
238 DeMarcus Cousins 364 .516 22.7 13.0 3.0 1.6 4.0 1.4 2.00 .00
241 John Wall 441 .503 18.7 4.7 8.4 1.7 3.9 .7 1.50 -.14 .04
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
246 Tayshaun Prince 1015 .509 14.0 5.5 2.8 .7 1.3 .6 .82 -.02 .14
253 Andrew Bogut 562 .538 13.2 11.7 2.7 .8 2.2 2.0 1.31 -.22 .06
260 Jameer Nelson 637 .531 16.7 4.2 6.4 1.2 2.8 .1 1.12 .19 .06
266 Mike Conley 627 .527 16.4 3.5 6.1 1.7 2.3 .2 1.15 .09 .08
272 Boris Diaw 845 .546 12.3 6.1 4.4 .8 2.3 .6 .77 .14 .10
292 Drew Gooden 601 .509 15.8 10.8 1.5 .9 2.1 .8 1.20 -.15 .07
299 Roy Hibbert 484 .506 15.5 9.6 1.9 .5 2.3 2.4 1.22 .09 .10
302 Tyson Chandler 841 .609 12.4 12.3 1.1 .7 1.9 1.6 1.08 -.41 .07
314 Jamal Crawford 992 .522 18.2 2.9 3.8 1.1 2.2 .2 .93 -.17 .05
317 Caron Butler 844 .515 16.3 6.0 2.4 1.5 2.1 .3 .94 -.21 .07
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
320 Jeff Teague 425 .532 18.0 3.0 6.9 1.6 3.0 .5 1.23 -.08 .12
322 Monta Ellis 755 .515 19.0 3.5 4.5 1.8 2.9 .3 1.12 -.36 .04
324 Brook Lopez 455 .554 21.3 8.7 1.4 .7 2.2 2.0 1.57 .01 .03
326 Luis Scola 543 .525 17.8 9.9 2.2 .9 2.1 .4 1.35 -.44 .05
354 J.R. Smith 699 .533 17.5 4.5 2.7 1.3 1.8 .3 .97 -.30 .10
355 DeAndre Jordan 488 .600 12.5 13.3 .8 .8 1.7 2.3 1.32 -.07 .09
358 Rudy Gay 666 .525 19.6 6.4 2.2 1.4 2.5 .8 1.24 -.23 .01
360 Damian Lillard 356 .549 22.2 3.8 6.0 .9 2.8 .3 1.48 -.26 .09
368 Kirk Hinrich 804 .513 13.6 3.6 5.5 1.3 2.2 .3 .81 -.01 .07
372 Trevor Ariza 696 .527 13.3 6.3 2.5 1.8 1.8 .4 .81 .11 .06
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
373 Marcin Gortat 459 .570 15.2 11.3 1.3 .7 1.6 1.6 1.33 -.21 .07
388 Serge Ibaka 499 .562 15.0 9.5 .8 .5 1.5 3.0 1.21 -.34 .15
391 Mike Miller 811 .573 15.4 5.8 3.2 .7 2.0 .3 .87 -.50 .05
394 Mo Williams 705 .529 16.9 3.6 5.5 1.1 2.8 .2 .99 -.43 .06
395 Raymond Felton 732 .490 13.8 3.7 6.3 1.5 2.6 .2 .92 -.06 .04
404 Klay Thompson 414 .561 21.2 3.7 2.6 1.0 2.0 .6 1.16 -.16 .16
405 DeMar DeRozan 523 .515 20.2 4.5 2.9 1.0 2.1 .3 1.16 -.06 .06
413 Devin Harris 611 .539 16.9 3.3 5.6 1.5 2.6 .3 1.06 -.56 .07
420 Goran Dragic 448 .552 17.5 3.9 5.8 1.3 2.9 .2 1.11 .01 .04
422 Mike Dunleavy 756 .551 15.3 5.5 2.7 .9 1.8 .4 .83 .16 .03
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
427 Ty Lawson 422 .546 16.3 3.4 7.2 1.4 2.6 .1 1.17 -.01 .06
429 Jrue Holiday 412 .508 16.6 4.2 6.2 1.6 3.0 .4 1.13 .05 .05
441 Greg Monroe 393 .538 17.7 11.4 2.5 1.3 2.4 .7 1.53 .00
443 Udonis Haslem 678 .529 11.4 10.3 1.2 .7 1.3 .4 .78 -.19 .13
445 George Hill 511 .555 15.5 4.1 4.0 1.1 1.6 .3 .95 -.13 .14
446 Thaddeus Young 593 .528 16.5 7.2 1.6 1.6 1.7 .5 1.07 -.43 .05
453 Kemba Walker 352 .502 19.1 4.2 5.2 1.5 2.3 .4 1.31 .06 .03
461 Jose Calderon 611 .571 13.6 3.4 7.3 1.1 2.1 .1 .99 .03 .02
462 Kevin Martin 615 .572 22.0 4.0 2.1 1.1 2.0 .1 1.19 -.43 .03
469 Chris Kaman 557 .519 15.3 10.7 1.6 .6 2.9 1.7 1.10 -.39 .02
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
470 Nicolas Batum 512 .558 14.5 6.3 3.9 1.1 2.1 .8 1.00 -.43 .06
471 Mario Chalmers 519 .543 13.0 3.5 5.1 1.9 2.4 .2 .74 -.05 .15
479 Jarrett Jack 602 .534 15.1 3.9 5.1 1.0 2.6 .2 .84 .22 .03
492 Tony Allen 501 .521 14.0 5.9 2.1 2.3 2.2 .7 .81 -.25 .12
494 Anderson Varejao 462 .533 11.2 11.3 1.5 1.3 1.4 .9 .99 -.31 .10
495 Brandon Jennings 423 .490 17.9 3.6 5.9 1.5 2.6 .2 1.21 -.21 .03
507 Tyreke Evans 405 .507 17.8 5.6 5.2 1.5 3.0 .4 1.27 -.62 .01
508 Matt Barnes 618 .538 12.4 7.0 2.4 1.2 1.9 .7 .73 -.20 .09
509 Amir Johnson 427 .595 13.4 9.8 1.8 1.0 1.8 1.7 1.09 .07 .03
515 Zaza Pachulia 558 .522 12.0 10.3 1.9 1.2 2.3 .6 .87 -.26 .05
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
520 Spencer Hawes 424 .506 13.7 9.4 2.6 .6 2.3 1.5 1.03 -.09 .04
530 Lou Williams 462 .530 19.0 3.2 3.7 1.3 2.1 .3 1.09 -.40 .06
531 Kyle Korver 777 .595 14.4 4.3 2.3 .9 1.4 .5 .66 -.24 .09
533 Nazr Mohammed 473 .516 13.0 10.6 .8 .9 1.9 1.3 .90 -.20 .07
534 Leandro Barbosa 545 .553 17.1 3.2 3.0 1.2 1.9 .2 .81 -.31 .11
542 Rodney Stuckey 495 .503 16.9 4.1 4.2 1.2 2.4 .2 .98 -.18 .04
550 Kendrick Perkins 570 .545 9.7 10.3 1.6 .6 2.6 1.9 .66 -.24 .16
553 Brandon Bass 479 .544 15.1 7.8 1.3 .6 1.5 1.0 .95 -.17 .08
554 Channing Frye 501 .537 14.1 7.8 1.4 .8 1.4 1.0 .88 -.06 .04
557 Derrick Favors 313 .538 17.0 10.6 1.5 1.1 2.1 1.8 1.40 -.29 .01
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
563 Darren Collison 421 .550 16.0 3.3 5.8 1.4 2.6 .2 1.00 -.02 .04
579 Nate Robinson 401 .525 17.3 3.8 4.1 1.4 2.2 .1 .97 .06 .04
598 Marvin Williams 661 .531 13.6 7.0 1.5 1.0 1.3 .6 .79 -.42 .05
609 Jeff Green 596 .520 16.0 5.7 1.7 .9 1.9 .6 .83 -.29 .05
610 Nick Collison 553 .564 10.4 9.2 1.7 .9 1.6 .9 .67 -.11 .08
621 Ramon Sessions 431 .520 15.7 4.2 5.3 1.0 2.6 .1 .94 -.61 .04
632 Gordon Hayward 383 .544 18.4 5.0 3.9 1.2 2.5 .5 1.14 -1.18 .01
637 Char. Villanueva 379 .515 17.2 8.4 1.3 .8 1.7 .9 1.15 -.03 .00
656 Ryan Anderson 364 .550 18.5 8.1 1.2 .8 1.4 .5 1.22 -.94 .04
665 J.J. Redick 471 .585 17.7 2.7 2.6 .6 1.5 .1 .80 -.36 .12
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
669 O.J. Mayo 489 .523 16.3 3.9 3.1 1.2 2.4 .3 .79 -.19 .04
674 Beno Udrih 506 .532 13.8 3.5 4.9 1.1 2.3 .1 .72 -.53 .06
695 Wesley Matthews 501 .562 16.7 3.6 2.2 1.3 1.5 .2 .81 -.55 .06
705 Andrea Bargnani 446 .523 17.8 6.2 1.3 .5 1.9 1.1 .97 -.63 .02
711 Jared Dudley 470 .570 12.6 5.1 2.2 1.3 1.3 .3 .64 .08 .03
718 Corey Brewer 460 .494 13.3 4.4 2.2 1.9 1.9 .4 .59 -.19 .05
722 Steve Blake 608 .522 9.8 3.2 5.4 1.0 2.0 .1 .41 -.24 .05
726 Eric Gordon 397 .550 18.6 2.9 3.1 1.1 2.4 .3 .88 -.14 .01
727 Arron Afflalo 534 .549 15.2 4.0 2.3 .6 1.6 .2 .65 -.38 .03
733 Courtney Lee 495 .543 13.2 3.5 2.0 1.3 1.3 .3 .52 -.18 .08
rk per 36 rates eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
734 Jason Thompson 413 .521 12.2 9.9 1.4 .7 1.8 1.0 .85 -.95 .00
736 Randy Foye 461 .518 14.5 3.1 3.4 1.0 2.0 .4 .63 -.64 .03
Re: NBA-ABA careers ranked, 1952-2016
How did Russell Westbrook get to a higher ranking than Kevin Durant?
In PO-RS eWins/484 min, Westy has stepped up, while KD has not, of late.
Other stats may beg to differ:Win Shares is tepid on Westbrook, with his mediocre shooting% and high TO rate.
BPM likes him more, thanks perhaps to versatility -- good Ast*Reb, etc.
Annual and cumulative VORP and eWins, RS and PS:* - 2012 was a short season, about 80%
Decided to abbreviate the postseason as PS.
Code: Select all
k eG Eff% Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk e484 P-R po%
37 KD 779 .590 28.6 7.2 3.5 1.1 3.1 1.0 2.15 -.15 .14
36 RW 641 .518 23.8 6.3 8.2 1.9 4.0 .3 2.06 .10 .13Other stats may beg to differ:
Code: Select all
Reg Sea G mpg PER WS/48 WS BPM vorp
Durant 641 38 25.0 .214 108 4.8 41.7
Westbr. 587 34 22.9 .161 67 5.2 36.1
Playoff G mpg PER WS/48 WS BPM vorp
Durant 91 42 23.6 .177 14.1 4.8 6.5
Westbr. 82 38 23.6 .152 9.8 6.8 6.8BPM likes him more, thanks perhaps to versatility -- good Ast*Reb, etc.
Annual and cumulative VORP and eWins, RS and PS:
Code: Select all
. annual totals cumulative totals
VORP Durant Westbrook Durant Westbrook
yr RS PS RS PS RS PS RS PS
2008 .4 .4
2009 2.8 1.3 3.2 1.3
2010 5.8 .1 2.9 .6 9.0 .1 4.2 .6
2011 3.0 1.2 5.0 .7 12.0 1.3 9.2 1.3
2012* 4.6 2.0 3.0 1.0 16.6 3.3 12.2 2.3
2013 7.6 1.3 5.1 .2 24.2 4.6 17.3 2.5
2014 8.5 1.3 3.0 2.0 32.7 5.9 20.3 4.5
2015 1.9 7.6 34.6 5.9 27.9 4.5
2016 6.4 .7 8.3 2.3 41.0 6.6 36.2 6.8
eWins Durant Westbrook Durant Westbrook
yr RS PS RS PS RS PS RS PS
2008 5.6 5.6
2009 10.1 5.7 15.7 5.7
2010 16.4 .9 8.3 1.1 32.1 .9 14.0 1.1
2011 13.4 2.9 13.1 2.5 45.5 3.8 27.1 3.6
2012* 12.4 3.5 9.7 2.5 57.9 7.3 36.8 6.1
2013 15.8 2.5 13.1 .4 73.7 9.8 49.9 6.5
2014 18.1 3.4 7.2 3.6 91.8 13.2 57.1 10.1
2015 4.6 13.5 96.4 13.2 70.6 10.1
2016 12.5 2.6 14.4 3.5 108.9 15.8 85.0 13.6
Decided to abbreviate the postseason as PS.
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Dr Positivity
- Posts: 331
- Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:44 pm
Re: NBA-ABA careers ranked, 1952-2016
A comment on Stockton. In my mind the two most overrated things when it comes to player rankings in the media are likely to be:
- Points per game
- Ring counting
Stats moving away from PPG needs no explanation. Ring counting is judging individuals on what is a team game, with a ton of context in teammate and management/coaching strategy, plus playoffs are a small sample size with many titles that could have gone the other way just by variance
For example this would make Kobe one of the most likely to be overrated as his legacy leans heavily on points and rings. Jordan also, but he is usually unquestioned as GOAT, so you could call him overrated and still #1 all time, just that it's not an easy call
On the other end consider Stockton. Of players typically ranked top 30, his PPG is one of the lowest while his non-PPG profile is almost perfect with the exception of rebounding, as the all time assist and steals player, elite efficiency, and the 3pt range to floor space. He also has no championships. His BPM is a little disappointing only finishing top 10 twice, although with longevity was still enough to be 19th in VORP. I don't trust BPM as much for eras before the data that was used to build it though. He is 5th all time in Win Shares. Stockton is kind of a reverse Kobe in that he excels at everything except points, rings and MVP voting (which is voted on with the same biases as points and winning)
- Points per game
- Ring counting
Stats moving away from PPG needs no explanation. Ring counting is judging individuals on what is a team game, with a ton of context in teammate and management/coaching strategy, plus playoffs are a small sample size with many titles that could have gone the other way just by variance
For example this would make Kobe one of the most likely to be overrated as his legacy leans heavily on points and rings. Jordan also, but he is usually unquestioned as GOAT, so you could call him overrated and still #1 all time, just that it's not an easy call
On the other end consider Stockton. Of players typically ranked top 30, his PPG is one of the lowest while his non-PPG profile is almost perfect with the exception of rebounding, as the all time assist and steals player, elite efficiency, and the 3pt range to floor space. He also has no championships. His BPM is a little disappointing only finishing top 10 twice, although with longevity was still enough to be 19th in VORP. I don't trust BPM as much for eras before the data that was used to build it though. He is 5th all time in Win Shares. Stockton is kind of a reverse Kobe in that he excels at everything except points, rings and MVP voting (which is voted on with the same biases as points and winning)
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permaximum
- Posts: 416
- Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:04 pm
Re: NBA-ABA careers ranked, 1952-2016
Ring argument is silly.
Current metrics are "terrible" at assigning player value.
Jon Stockton is better player than Kobe. Kobe is much more talented.
If we only considered skill or talent, players like Francis, Marbury, Baron Davis, T-Mac would all be in top 10 of 1995+.
Current metrics are "terrible" at assigning player value.
Jon Stockton is better player than Kobe. Kobe is much more talented.
If we only considered skill or talent, players like Francis, Marbury, Baron Davis, T-Mac would all be in top 10 of 1995+.
Re: NBA-ABA careers ranked, 1952-2016
Oh boy! Discussion!
Here's that Kobe - Stockton territory:These are adjusted per-36-Min rates. Kobe got 67% more Pts/36 (24.9 to 14.9) and 70% more Pts/100 poss.
By playing for above-avg teams and with above-avg shooting%, both guys' standardized Sco rates are enhanced.
http://bkref.com/tiny/I2Ype
Stockton is dinged a bit by his low (for a superstar) Min/G. It was good strategy to keep him under 30 mpg after age 34, and it got him into more games than anyone but Kareem.
Kobe still got more RS minutes as well as 35% more PO minutes, and more productively per minute.
The one measure that looks at Stockton more favorably is WS/48 -- .209 vs .170
In playoffs, this becomes negligible -- .160 vs .157
I give extra weight to playoffs and figure a championship adds 10 games' worth to those playoffs.
With no extra PO weight, Kobe actually rises 2 spots -- passing Russell, Magic, and Bird, while dropping behind Robinson -- to #11;
Stockton would pass West, Russell, Baylor, Pippen, and Wade -- guys with more playoff cred -- while dropping back of Moses.
Just dropping the 10 games "ring" bonus does not change either guy's rank. Stock gets a lot closer to Pippen but doesn't pass him.
The 10 games isn't arbitrary. It's about how many PO games one gets when starting a 7-game series. Only the Finals does not lead to additional games for a series winner.
Here's that Kobe - Stockton territory:
Code: Select all
11-20 G mpg Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk T po% p/r
Larry Bird 1061 39 22.8 9.9 5.7 1.7 3.0 .8 38.9 .17 .94
Bill Russell 1128 43 12.6 14.6 3.8 1.5 2.9 4.0 35.6 .16 1.03
Kobe Bryant 1565 37 26.9 5.5 4.6 1.5 3.0 .5 36.3 .15 .96
Julius Erving 1432 37 22.5 7.8 4.0 1.9 3.4 1.7 35.4 .14 .98
Charles Barkley 1196 37 22.8 12.4 3.8 1.6 3.2 .8 38.4 .11 .99
David Robinson 1110 35 23.9 11.6 2.7 1.5 2.6 3.1 41.3 .11 .93
Dirk Nowitzki 1485 36 25.4 8.7 2.6 .9 1.9 .9 36.8 .11 .99
Jerry West 1083 40 24.8 4.2 6.0 2.7 3.3 .9 36.8 .15 1.02
Dwyane Wade 1020 36 26.8 5.4 5.9 1.7 3.4 .9 38.1 .17 .94
Elgin Baylor 977 40 23.5 9.6 3.9 1.6 3.2 1.5 37.3 .14 .98
21-30 G mpg Sco Reb Ast Stl TO Blk T po% p/r
Scottie Pippen 1386 35 17.9 7.3 5.5 2.0 2.9 .9 31.8 .16 1.01
Oscar Robertson 1126 42 21.9 5.3 8.0 2.0 3.4 .7 36.3 .08 .92
Patrick Ewing 1322 35 23.0 11.0 2.0 1.0 3.1 2.6 36.5 .11 .95
John Stockton 1686 32 16.1 3.3 11.8 2.4 3.2 .2 33.6 .12 .95
Bob Pettit 880 39 24.9 11.7 2.8 1.3 3.3 1.8 39.2 .10 .91By playing for above-avg teams and with above-avg shooting%, both guys' standardized Sco rates are enhanced.
http://bkref.com/tiny/I2Ype
Stockton is dinged a bit by his low (for a superstar) Min/G. It was good strategy to keep him under 30 mpg after age 34, and it got him into more games than anyone but Kareem.
Kobe still got more RS minutes as well as 35% more PO minutes, and more productively per minute.
The one measure that looks at Stockton more favorably is WS/48 -- .209 vs .170
In playoffs, this becomes negligible -- .160 vs .157
I give extra weight to playoffs and figure a championship adds 10 games' worth to those playoffs.
With no extra PO weight, Kobe actually rises 2 spots -- passing Russell, Magic, and Bird, while dropping behind Robinson -- to #11;
Stockton would pass West, Russell, Baylor, Pippen, and Wade -- guys with more playoff cred -- while dropping back of Moses.
Just dropping the 10 games "ring" bonus does not change either guy's rank. Stock gets a lot closer to Pippen but doesn't pass him.
The 10 games isn't arbitrary. It's about how many PO games one gets when starting a 7-game series. Only the Finals does not lead to additional games for a series winner.
Re: NBA-ABA careers ranked, 1952-2016
VORP is not calculated for years before 1974. So Stockton's #19 career RS accumulation does not reckon with Wilt, Russell, West, Baylor, or Oscar -- all of whom rank above Stockton on my list. Pettit's right there.consider Stockton... has no championships. His BPM is a little disappointing only finishing top 10 twice, although with longevity was still enough to be 19th in VORP. I don't trust BPM as much for eras before the data that was used to build it though.... excels at everything except points, rings and MVP voting (which is voted on with the same biases as points and winning)
These could well bump him down to #24, whenever VORP goes that far back -- which is where I rank him, too.
ESPN earlier this year ranked Stock #19. So they weren't rankled by his lack of a ring.
Kobe they put at #12, same as I did.